3rd party transformers..

[kup]

TO ME. Generally, a lot of the designs are dog ugly. TO ME. I PERSONALLY find them mostly unappealing aesthetically. ME. MY EYES. There are the occasional design that I think is fantastic and would love to see Mass produced so everyone could own it, but that is rare. TO ME. Do you want me to clarify that I'm talking exclusively ABOUT MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT some more? Because it seems like you're not grasping I'm talking about my opinion on designs.

And it was at this point, I have realised that I can't say anything bad about third parties. Or I'm a shill for Hasbro or TT. Or I'm an idiot. So whatever, you guys like them, that's awesome. I'm glad you do.

But I don't. And just because I'm in the minority doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid. Or I guess it does because that's the way things work in Fandom.

You need to chill dude and your attitude is more the problem than whatever opinion you may have.

A discussion on the merits/flaws of 3rd party styles would have actually been an interesting one as even among 3rd party fans, we have differing preferences which we do discuss often. Unfortunately the way you came about it was all messed up because of your generalized bias which you now seem to be trying to backpedal from.

Anyways, to each their own. We know your views and we made ours clear. There is no need to take this further unless you actually want to discuss something properly without all the emo and self entitled 'opinions'.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

On a thread-related note, I'd suggest where this all started going pear-shaped was that this post...

Never understood the entitlement that these things bring. "Well Hasbro aren't doing it right now, thus they are awful and I must violate copyright."

Too many of them doing the same thing (often just because another group is working on it, it seems), no real quality checking, over complex or fiddly looking designs (plus the Dreamwave style they seem to be done in. thick, boxy, "bad arse")... yeah, I'm not a fan generally.

...maybe left out this bit.

Sometimes it really feels like there's two Transformers fandoms. The general fandom, and this place, which is reasonable and has it's head screwed on right.

That kinda made it seem like a personal attack on those of us here who enjoy 3PP stuff, and it all kind of went South from there. I'd suggest we all tone this discussion down a notch and try to continue in a more calm, considered way, yeah?





With that all (hopefully) cleared up, if we all do want to continue the conversation while playing nice (which I'd quite like to do), here's what I came up with.

Sometimes it really feels like there's two Transformers fandoms. The general fandom, and this place, which is reasonable and has it's head screwed on right.
...
As I said, my perceptions of the third party products might also be coloured by some downright bizarre comments, arguments and actions I've seen from other Transformers communities.

Actually, I totally have to pay this. Some members of the fanbase can be crazily demanding, over 3PP stuff and official stuff both - these are just toys for crying out loud, not matters of life-and-death. Thank Heavens OTCA is usually an exception to the rule.
So yeah, I can get where you're coming on this, but I'd respectfully suggest that maybe you're making a bit too strong a link between 3PPs and certain subsections of their supporters. A lot of the fandom-at-large irks me as well, but that's a different issue from the actual products themselves. It's the same with anything really - I really enjoy Game of Thrones, but so do a lot of people I work with and some of them are jerks IMO.
And just to reiterate, it's totally your choice as to whether you buy 'em or not. If you don't like 'em, by all means don't buy 'em - and that goes for official HasTakTom stuff too.

The Masterpieces are a little different, being aimed at collectors, but not, if you get what I mean? Since the increase in the lines output and the change in scale, it seems less like "high end collectors" and more "fans of the G1 cartoon but not much else, here have some toys that look like what you remember". They've been made a little less "high end" so to speak. I'm not sure I'm actually articulating this bit very well at all.

IIRC the new scale is because TakTom wanted to 'reset' the line so as to be in scale with MP10/Optimus V.2. The new Optimus is kind of the new benchmark, if you will, and the rest of the series (except for the remolds of Starcream) are based around it. AFAIK MP01 wasn't really intended as the beginning of a line/series but rather as a standalone figure, and TakTom only started making more MP figures after it was well received. The other thing to remember is that the MP lines are made by TakTom for the Japanese market first and foremost, and then (sometimes) imported by Hasbro - high-end toys for adults are definitely big business over here.
To put it more simply, I think what the new scale and production numbers (are meant to) represent is less of a 'cheapening' of the line and more of trying for more consistent approach to it.

Hasbro and TT do plenty of dodgy things. Definitely. Cars are a blind spot to me, so you got me there. I didn't see "Lamborghini just different enough to avoid licencing issues" I see "red sports car". So yeah, until I read that I wouldn't have had a clue. But yeah that is dodgy, and unfortunate. I'm actually surprised that they wouldn't just get actual licenses for non-movie stuff thrown in with the movie stuff, but again, cars are not my thing, so for all I know the licensing for the movies prevented this because of the companies involved or something.

Truth be told, as another non-car-y-type I didn't really know that either before I read about it in a TFW thread on the same topic as this one. I think what it boils down to is pretty much that 1: it's cheaper to skirt around it rather than pay the fees (if the companies will even let you, i.e. Volkswagon tends to frown on being associated with war toys), and 2: HTT would have to get/pay for permission/rights from a lot of different companies and for a lot of individual vehicles. And then there's the issue of paint-jobs/sponsors - if they want to faithfully reproduce, say, G1 Jazz or Smokescreen they have to get permission to use the colour schemes, sponsor logos and racing numbers as well as the car models, i.e. G1 Mirage, G1 Smokescreen, G1 Wheeljack, amongst others.
It's all pretty big and complicated, but I think that's the general gist of it.

What sort of production runs do the third party products have, by the way? I mean, if they're not exactly large runs I really don't see that that proves the high-end collectors market is this gold mine waiting to be tapped.

They're not that big, but AFAIK that's more to do with the financial resources and mass-market access the usually-small 3PP groups have than with the levels of demand (which are, to be fair, smaller than regular-line TFs-for-kids - 'the fans' make up about 10% of the TF market IIRC). It costs quite a bit to produce a TF - official or unofficial - and while a major multinational corporation like Hasbro can afford to do massive runs, a little niche producer doesn't have quite so much cash to put into production and/or access to major chain retailers like WalMart. Hasbro (who owns a lot of franchises besides Transformers) can make their profits by dint of sheer numbers (and even then has production budget limits for each price-point/production wave) and widespread distribution, whereas 3PPs are a niche market and don't have the weight of G.I. Joe and My Little Pony to bargain with manufacturers and mass-release retail outlets with. Factories will often throw in the creation of of the molds for HaTakTom for free because the sheer size of the orders allow them to absorb the cost, whereas 3PPs have to pay for it themselves.
I guess the best analogy I can think of is this: imagine a local gourmet restaurant (let's call it 3rd Party Pizza) compared to, say, McDonalds. McDonalds can sell their product for much cheaper and at a much greater scale than the local place, but the local joint serves (arguably) better food - unless, like yourself, you're not a "pizza" fan (which again, is fair enough, as long as you allow other people their own personal tastes as you'd want them to allow you yours). Because of their greater reach and sales numbers, McHasbro has greater purchasing/bargaining power (i.e. they can bulk buy much greater quantities and negotiate better prices from their suppliers), while 3PPizza is just some local specialty restaurant. While they're not raking in the billions that McHasbro is, 3PPizza is still turning over enough of a profit to get by and to expand their menu (try our burgers!), and a reasonable number of diners like their food enough that they're willing to pay the higher price to eat there. In the meantime, McHasbro's Japanese partner/counterpart has introduced the premium "Angus-san" range, and while it's not as big a seller as their usual "Deluxe burger" range, they're still selling more Angus-san Burgers than 3PPizza simply because it's more widely available. If everyone was really satisfied enough with McHasbro that the higher prices for 3PPizza just weren't worth it to them, enough people would stop eating there that 3PPizza would go out of business.
The market for 3PP stuff doesn't necessarily have to be Bigger Than Jesus, it just has to be big enough to make enough to be sustainable - and hopefully a little extra. If it wasn't profitable then 3PP groups would run at a loss and would all have gone out of business...but they're still around. The very fact that the industry exists is proof that there's demand enough to support it, even at the higher prices 3PP stuff usually sells for.

If these designers and all are so talented, though, if the products are so good, why don't they make a splash with original designs? Or the interest really does end with the character, which then does make it seem more like it's less about the product and more of an "I want it now so I must have it now" mentality. I mean, if they're sound designs and productions they should live or die based on existing fictions from the 80's should they? Plus, with the aesthetic being often unpleasing, I think some of that stems from thinking some of the moulds created would just be better off being completely original, and the displeasure in my (rather crazy) mind just comes from some of them looking, I don't know, forced, more than anything.

Again, I'd suggest that your dislike of 3PP stuff is largely due to your conflating them with an unpleasant subset of their fanbase (as well as you personally often not liking the aesthetic). It's kind of like saying that a convicted pedophile likes classical music, therefore I hate classical musicians 'cos it sucks and they're all pedophiles. Hate the pedophile, not the music. If you don't like classical music because you don't like the sound (i.e. I think it sucks), fair enough, but if you start tarring all classical musicians/composers/fans as pedophiles that's kind of a problem.
Re. the first question, I seem to recall FansProject's Steel Core did pretty well, though I don't have one myself. All the ones I've found have been a bit pricey for my liking.
Perhaps more to the point, barring outright rip-offs like iGear's Faith Leader, to a certain extent they are making a splash with original designs. They're just based on/homages to/interpretations of old, often-beloved childhood characters - it's a little bit like the way that The Lion King is more or less Hamlet, only with lions. The designs they produce are - usually - their own *cough*let'snottalkaboutUniqueToysBeasticons*cough *. It's like how Movieverse Fracture is an homage to Gobots Crasher, but is still a new design (i.e. the Classics Mirage mold).
That said, the nostalgia effect certainly plays a big part, at least for me. Bear in mind that (IIRC) the 3PP scene only really took off after FansProject City Commander, which was just an add-on kit that gave Classics Magnus a trailer. Most of the 3PP stuff I have are add-on kits that - for me - improve/'complete' an official release that to me was kind of 'missing' something. It's less "I want it now so I must have it now" than it is "This is available, and I want it, and I can afford it, so why not." RotF Bludgeon is a sweet toy on his own, but the swords were thick enough that they were breaking his hands and his head was kinda meh. With the Headrobots kit (and having swapped his thighs around), he looks great and I don't have to worry about breaking him just by having him hold his weapons. For full figures, it's much the same - I very much doubt that the Predacons (my favourite combiner team and some of my favourite characters) are on TakTom's "Masterpieces-To-Do" list, and MMC is releasing a set that I like the look of, and I can afford it, so why not? I already have a set of G1 Predacons so the reissue isn't something that interests me, but I would like an updated set of improved Predacons, just like I happily bought MP10 or the various Classicsverse figures I have.
If I'd rather pay a bit more for a decent burger from the local pizza joint than grab a Spicy McChicken from the local Maccas, or if I reckon that the Big Mac I grabbed for lunch would go better with some chips from the local fish-and-chip shop than those god-awful Maccas French Fries, that's a little bit different from "I want it now so I must have it now gimme gimme gimme WAAAAAH!".

[Trent]

On a thread-related note, I'd suggest where this all started going pear-shaped was that this post......maybe left out this bit.That kinda made it seem like a personal attack on those of us here who enjoy 3PP stuff, and it all kind of went South from there. I'd suggest we all tone this discussion down a notch and try to continue in a more calm, considered way, yeah?





With that all (hopefully cleared up), if we all do want to continue the conversation while playing nice (which I'd quite like to do), here's what I came up with.
Actually, I totally have to pay this. Some members of the fanbase can be crazily demanding, over 3PP stuff and official stuff both - these are just toys for crying out loud, not matters of life-and-death. Thank Heavens OTCA is usually an exception to the rule.
So yeah, I can get where you're coming on this, but I'd respectfully suggest that maybe you're making a bit too strong a link between 3PPs and certain subsections of their supporters. A lot of the fandom-at-large irks me as well, but that's a different issue from the actual products themselves. It's the same with anything really - I really enjoy Game of Thrones, but so do a lot of people I work with and some of them are jerks IMO.
And just to reiterate, it's totally your choice as to whether you buy 'em or not. If you don't like 'em, by all means don't buy 'em - and that goes for official HasTakTom stuff too.IIRC the new scale is because TakTom wanted to 'reset' the line so as to be in scale with MP10/Optimus V.2. The new Optimus is kind of the new benchmark, if you will, and the rest of the series (except for the remolds of Starcream) are based around it. AFAIK MP01 wasn't really intended as the beginning of a line/series but rather as a standalone figure, and TakTom only started making more MP figures after it was well received. The other thing to remember is that the MP lines are made by TakTom for the Japanese market first and foremost, and then (sometimes) imported by Hasbro - high-end toys for adults are definitely big business over here.
To put it more simply, I think what the new scale and production numbers (are meant to) represent is less of a 'cheapening' of the line and more of trying for more consistent approach to it.
Truth be told, as another non-car-y-type I didn't really know that either before I read about it in a TFW thread on the same topic as this one. I think what it boils down to is pretty much that 1: it's cheaper to skirt around it rather than pay the fees (if the companies will even let you, i.e. Volkswagon tends to frown on being associated with war toys), and 2: HTT would have to get/pay for permission/rights from a lot of different companies and for a lot of individual vehicles. And then there's the issue of paint-jobs/sponsors - if they want to faithfully reproduce, say, G1 Jazz or Smokescreen they have to get permission to use the colour schemes, sponsor logos and racing numbers as well as the car models, i.e. G1 Mirage, G1 Smokescreen, G1 Wheeljack, amongst others.
It's all pretty big and complicated, but I think that's the general gist of it.They're not that big, but AFAIK that's more to do with the financial resources and mass-market access the usually-small 3PP groups have than with the levels of demand (which are, to be fair, smaller than regular-line TFs-for-kids - 'the fans' make up about 10% of the TF market IIRC). It costs quite a bit to produce a TF - official or unofficial - and while a major multinational corporation like Hasbro can afford to do massive runs, a little niche producer doesn't have quite so much cash to put into production and/or access to major chain retailers like WalMart. Hasbro (who owns a lot of franchises besides Transformers) can make their profits by dint of sheer numbers (and even then has production budget limits for each price-point/production wave) and widespread distribution, whereas 3PPs are a niche market and don't have the weight of G.I. Joe and My Little Pony to bargain with manufacturers and mass-release retail outlets with. Factories will often throw in the creation of of the molds for HaTakTom for free because the sheer size of the orders allow them to absorb the cost, whereas 3PPs have to pay for it themselves.
I guess the best analogy I can think of is this: imagine a local restaurant (let's call it 3rd Party Pizza) compared to, say, McDonalds. McDonalds can sell their product for much cheaper and at a much greater scale than the local place, but the local place serves (arguably) better food - unless, like yourself, you're not a "pizza" fan (which again, is fair enough, as long as you allow other people their own personal tastes as you'd want them to allow you yours). Because of their greater reach and sales numbers, McHasbro has greater purchasing/bargaining power (i.e. they can bulk buy much greater quantities and negotiate better prices from their suppliers), while 3PPizza is just some local restaurant. While they're not raking in the billions that McHasbro is, 3PPizza is still turning over enough of a profit to get by and to expand their menu (try our burgers!), and a reasonable number of diners like their food enough that they're willing to pay the higher price to eat there. In the meantime, McHasbro's Japanese partner/counterpart has introduced the premium "Angus-san" range, and while it's not as big a seller as their usual "Deluxe burger" range, they're still selling more Angus-san Burgers than 3PPizza simply because it's more widely available. If everyone was really satisfied enough with McHasbro that the higher prices for 3PPizza just weren't worth it to them, enough people would stop eating there that 3PPizza would go out of business.
The market for 3PP stuff doesn't necessarily have to be Bigger Than Jesus, it just has to be big enough to make enough to be sustainable - and hopefully a little extra. If it wasn't profitable then 3PP groups would run at a loss and would all have gone out of business...but they're still around. The very fact that the industry exists is proof that there's demand enough to support it, even at the higher prices 3PP stuff usually sells for.
Again, I'd suggest that your dislike of 3PP stuff is largely due to your conflating them with an unpleasant subset of their fanbase (as well as you personally often not liking the aesthetic). It's kind of like saying that a convicted pedophile likes classical music, therefore I hate classical musicians 'cos it sucks and they're all pedophiles. Hate the pedophile, not the music. If you don't like classical music because you don't like the sound (i.e. I think it sucks), fair enough, but if you start tarring all classical musicians/composers/fans as pedophiles that's kind of a problem.
Re. the first question, I seem to recall FansProject's Steel Core did pretty well, though I don't have one myself. All the ones I've found have been a bit pricey for my liking.
Perhaps more to the point, barring outright rip-offs like iGear's Faith Leader, to a certain extent they are making a splash with original designs. They're just based on/homages to/interpretations of old, often-beloved childhood characters - it's a little bit like the way that The Lion King is more or less Hamlet, only with lions. The designs they produce are - usually - their own *cough*let'snottalkaboutUniqueToysBeasticons*cough *. It's like how Movieverse Fracture is an homage to Gobots Crasher, but is still a new design (i.e. the Classics Mirage mold).
That said, the nostalgia effect certainly plays a big part, at least for me. Bear in mind that (IIRC) the 3PP scene only really took off after FansProject City Commander, which was just an add-on kit that gave Classics Magnus a trailer. Most of the 3PP stuff I have are add-on kits that - for me - improve/'complete' an official release that to me was kind of 'missing' something. It's less "I want it now so I must have it now" than it is "This is available, and I want it, and I can afford it, so why not." RotF Bludgeon is a sweet toy on his own, but the swords were thick enough that they were breaking his hands and his head was kinda meh. With the Headrobots kit (and having swapped his thighs around), he looks great and I don't have to worry about breaking him just by having him hold his weapons. For full figures, it's much the same - I very much doubt that the Predacons (my favourite combiner team and some of my favourite characters) are on TakTom's "Masterpieces-To-Do" list, and MMC is releasing a set that I like the look of, and I can afford it, so why not? I already have a set of G1 Predacons so the reissue isn't something that interests me, but I would like an updated set of improved Predacons, just like I happily bought MP10 or the various Classicsverse figures I have.
If I'd rather pay a bit more for a decent burger from the local pizza joint than grab a Spicy McChicken from the local Maccas, or if I reckon that the Big Mac I grabbed for lunch would go better with some chips from the local fish-and-chip shop than those god-awful Maccas French Fries, that's a little bit different from "I want it now so I must have it now gimme gimme gimme WAAAAAH!".

Epic.

[Gouki]

On a thread-related note, I'd suggest where this all started going pear-shaped was that this post......maybe left out this bit.That kinda made it seem like a personal attack on those of us here who enjoy 3PP stuff, and it all kind of went South from there. I'd suggest we all tone this discussion down a notch and try to continue in a more calm, considered way, yeah?

Oh yeah, that was just meant to be pure compliment about how reasonable this place generally is and wasn't meant to be an attack on people who like third party at all. I'm very sorry if it came across that way. In fact it was complimenting the people here who do buy third party as something that they genuinely enjoy rather than for any other reason.

I'm aware I was a bit aggressive and I did come across unfortunately a bit righteous, I just felt that I was getting told that it doesn't matter what I think of them, I'm wrong. So I am sorry, that just raised my hackles for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the board and I should have walked away instead of typing madly.

With that all (hopefully cleared up), if we all do want to continue the conversation while playing nice (which I'd quite like to do), here's what I came up with.
Actually, I totally have to pay this. Some members of the fanbase can be crazily demanding, over 3PP stuff and official stuff both - these are just toys for crying out loud, not matters of life-and-death. Thank Heavens OTCA is usually an exception to the rule.

Yep, definitely. They are just toys, afterall, and everyone (myself included, absolutely) should chill more overall. We should be happy that there is so much great stuff coming from all angles of the franchise we love. IDW, Hasbro, TT, 3PP, etc.

So yeah, I can get where you're coming on this, but I'd respectfully suggest that maybe you're making a bit too strong a link between 3PPs and certain subsections of their supporters. A lot of the fandom-at-large irks me as well, but that's a different issue from the actual products themselves. It's the same with anything really - I really enjoy Game of Thrones, but so do a lot of people I work with and some of them are jerks IMO.

Yeah, I do probably let the louder more unpleasant sections colour my thoughts a bit and I am trying to work on that. Mostly because of this place. I'm also a bit of a prick, unfortunately. Also something I'm working on.

And just to reiterate, it's totally your choice as to whether you buy 'em or not. If you don't like 'em, by all means don't buy 'em - and that goes for official HasTakTom stuff too.IIRC the new scale is because TakTom wanted to 'reset' the line so as to be in scale with MP10/Optimus V.2. The new Optimus is kind of the new benchmark, if you will, and the rest of the series (except for the remolds of Starcream) are based around it. AFAIK MP01 wasn't really intended as the beginning of a line/series but rather as a standalone figure, and TakTom only started making more MP figures after it was well received. The other thing to remember is that the MP lines are made by TakTom for the Japanese market first and foremost, and then (sometimes) imported by Hasbro - high-end toys for adults are definitely big business over here.

Yeah, high-end market in Japan is insanely lucrative and I think watching that is another reason why I have the opinion that it's not going to be quite as lucrative for Hasbro outside of certain special, limited releases. Not enough to make it a constant presence at least.

To put it more simply, I think what the new scale and production numbers (are meant to) represent is less of a 'cheapening' of the line and more of trying for more consistent approach to it.

And to make it more avaliable I'd say. They clearly realised at some point, a smaller, more consistent scale (I haven't actually touched any of the new MPs, unfortunately, so I have no idea if they seem lesser quality, they certainly don't look it at all) would allow more people to enjoy the line and allow them to be more flexible with what they do and expansive.

Truth be told, as another non-car-y-type I didn't really know that either before I read about it in a TFW thread on the same topic as this one. I think what it boils down to is pretty much that 1: it's cheaper to skirt around it rather than pay the fees (if the companies will even let you, i.e. Volkswagon tends to frown on being associated with war toys), and 2: HTT would have to get/pay for permission/rights from a lot of different companies and for a lot of individual vehicles. And then there's the issue of paint-jobs/sponsors - if they want to faithfully reproduce, say, G1 Jazz or Smokescreen they have to get permission to use the colour schemes, sponsor logos and racing numbers as well as the car models, i.e. G1 Mirage, G1 Smokescreen, G1 Wheeljack, amongst others. It's all pretty big and complicated, but I think that's the general gist of it.

I'm actually surprised that they weren't able to get some kind of licensing for Generations/Universe/Classics stuff thrown in with the movie, but I guess that's licensing for you. Insanely complicated.

They're not that big, but AFAIK that's more to do with the financial resources and mass-market access the usually-small 3PP groups have than with the levels of demand (which are, to be fair, smaller than regular-line TFs-for-kids - 'the fans' make up about 10% of the TF market IIRC). It costs quite a bit to produce a TF - official or unofficial - and while a major multinational corporation like Hasbro can afford to do massive runs, a little niche producer doesn't have quite so much cash to put into production and/or access to major chain retailers like WalMart. Hasbro (who owns a lot of franchises besides Transformers) can make their profits by dint of sheer numbers (and even then has production budget limits for each price-point/production wave) and widespread distribution, whereas 3PPs are a niche market and don't have the weight of G.I. Joe and My Little Pony to bargain with manufacturers and mass-release retail outlets with. Factories will often throw in the creation of of the molds for HaTakTom for free because the sheer size of the orders allow them to absorb the cost, whereas 3PPs have to pay for it themselves.[/quote]

I guess the best analogy I can think of is this: imagine a local restaurant (let's call it 3rd Party Pizza) compared to, say, McDonalds. McDonalds can sell their product for much cheaper and at a much greater scale than the local place, but the local place serves (arguably) better food - unless, like yourself, you're not a "pizza" fan (which again, is fair enough, as long as you allow other people their own personal tastes as you'd want them to allow you yours). Because of their greater reach and sales numbers, McHasbro has greater purchasing/bargaining power (i.e. they can bulk buy much greater quantities and negotiate better prices from their suppliers), while 3PPizza is just some local restaurant. While they're not raking in the billions that McHasbro is, 3PPizza is still turning over enough of a profit to get by and to expand their menu (try our burgers!), and a reasonable number of diners like their food enough that they're willing to pay the higher price to eat there. In the meantime, McHasbro's Japanese partner/counterpart has introduced the premium "Angus-san" range, and while it's not as big a seller as their usual "Deluxe burger" range, they're still selling more Angus-san Burgers than 3PPizza simply because it's more widely available. If everyone was really satisfied enough with McHasbro that the higher prices for 3PPizza just weren't worth it to them, enough people would stop eating there that 3PPizza would go out of business.The market for 3PP stuff doesn't necessarily have to be Bigger Than Jesus, it just has to be big enough to make enough to be sustainable - and hopefully a little extra. If it wasn't profitable then 3PP groups would run at a loss and would all have gone out of business...but they're still around. The very fact that the industry exists is proof that there's demand enough to support it, even at the higher prices 3PP stuff usually sells for.

Absolutely understand what you're saying (and will just seem like a big ball of hate, when I say I read it as Hungry Hasbros, just because I don't eat Maccas :P). If you can items that satisfy you more in the end, even if the cost is higher, why wouldn't you? I know there is a certain demand there, but the reason I was genuinely curious if they ever said production run sizes or if the items were numbered or anything, was because if you know they're runs of say 500 or less (and I could definitely see that as an extra reason why people are so passionate and supportive of 3PP groups (and this isn't meant as an attack or a negative), beyond the fact that a lot of people do genuinely like the product) then I can see why fans would see that as reason for Hasbro to follow the TT route, and I can also see on the other hand why Hasbro would be thinking "well yes, but it's just not enough to invest in".

But I do expect Hasbro to be taking a few more risks and do things a little differently, as they have with things like Metroplex (did anybody expect him? At that size?) and starting to include comics with all the upcoming Generations figures. Who knows what we could be seeing soon? It would be nice if they would take a few more risks and be a little more radical though. I mean, that's what they seem to be doing with the My Little Pony Franchise and that seems more precarious than the 'former franchise (thought maybe that's why they do tend to play it very conservatively a lot of them time).

Again, I'd suggest that your dislike of 3PP stuff is largely due to your conflating them with an unpleasant subset of their fanbase (as well as you personally often not liking the aesthetic). It's kind of like saying that a convicted pedophile likes classical music, therefore I hate classical musicians 'cos it sucks and they're all pedophiles. Hate the pedophile, not the music. If you don't like classical music because you don't like the sound (i.e. I think it sucks), fair enough, but if you start tarring all classical musicians/composers/fans as pedophiles that's kind of a problem.

Too true. One other sticking point for me is definitely the price, so I'm very much in the dark about the actual products. I understand why the price is what it is, but it'll pretty much prevent me from ever being able to pick them up without a lottery win. (The only times I have dropped crazy amounts were for United Stepper and TFCC Slipstream, Circuit and Jackpot when I was made redundant.) My remark about QC in the original post was based on second hand accounts, I do admit that.

Re. the first question, I seem to recall FansProject's Steel Core did pretty well, though I don't have one myself. All the ones I've found have been a bit pricey for my liking. Perhaps more to the point, barring outright rip-offs like iGear's Faith Leader, to a certain extent they are making a splash with original designs. They're just based on/homages to/interpretations of old, often-beloved childhood characters - it's a little bit like the way that The Lion King is more or less Hamlet, only with lions. The designs they produce are - usually - their own *cough*let'snottalkaboutUniqueToysBeasticons*cough *. It's like how Movieverse Fracture is an homage to Gobots Crasher, but is still a new design (i.e. the Classics Mirage mold).

I hadn't heard of Beasticons before and that comment makes me very pleased about that. But, wow, that Faith Leader? Not cool iGear. It is good to see some companies trying new things. I hadn't heard of Steel Core before, but I have he does looks pretty good and I could definitely get behind more of this.

That said, the nostalgia effect certainly plays a big part, at least for me. Bear in mind that (IIRC) the 3PP scene only really took off after FansProject City Commander, which was just an add-on kit that gave Classics Magnus a trailer. Most of the 3PP stuff I have are add-on kits that - for me - improve/'complete' an official release that to me was kind of 'missing' something. It's less "I want it now so I must have it now" than it is "This is available, and I want it, and I can afford it, so why not." RotF Bludgeon is a sweet toy on his own, but the swords were thick enough that they were breaking his hands and his head was kinda meh. With the Headrobots kit (and having swapped his thighs around), he looks great and I don't have to worry about breaking him just by having him hold his weapons. For full figures, it's much the same - I very much doubt that the Predacons (my favourite combiner team and some of my favourite characters) are on TakTom's "Masterpieces-To-Do" list, and MMC is releasing a set that I like the look of, and I can afford it, so why not? I already have a set of G1 Predacons so the reissue isn't something that interests me, but I would like an updated set of improved Predacons, just like I happily bought MP10 or the various Classicsverse figures I have. If I'd rather pay a bit more for a decent burger from the local pizza joint than grab a Spicy McChicken from the local Maccas, or if I reckon that the Big Mac I grabbed for lunch would go better with some chips from the local fish-and-chip shop than those god-awful Maccas French Fries, that's a little bit different from "I want it now so I must have it now gimme gimme gimme WAAAAAH!".

I guess I'm a total hypocrite, because I'm fine with the add-on kits and, like, Repolabels as expansions. I have no justification for that. I really don't. Someone doing a Predaking is understandable. It's probably not going to happen from TT, but then suddenly there was like three or four different Predacon groups, and it just seemed really redundant. More choice for everyone is a good thing, sure, but it makes it seem less about making it available and more about dibbs and getting in first and showing the other 3PP whose boss, which is a little unfortunate.

I will admit, I saw some 3PP Targetmasters that I really thought were awesome. I think it was Optimus, Megs, Soundwave and Screamer. I thought "now, this is what I like. Unique, interesting stuff that nobody else is doing." They just looked really cool. And to go back to Steel Core, I looked around that wiki link and saw the Fansproject Insecticons remoulded to make the alt-modes vehicles, and they look pretty good. But then, if I had come across them in the future without being told they were the Insecticons already I would assume they were original characters in Insecticon colours (love me some purple toys)--so again, something I could really get behind if the quality is there.

Will definitely understand any tl;dr here.

[Megatran]

Truly compulsory reading.

I think I've understood all the discussion points except at the point where pedophiles, classical music and a fast food chain (which I won't name) entered the story. Are there any other analogies that can be used to better highlight the argument?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Truly compulsory reading.

I think I've understood all the discussion points except at the point where pedophiles, classical music and a fast food chain (which I won't name) entered the story. Are there any other analogies that can be used to better highlight the argument?

I'll see what I can do. Short versions/summaries, then alternate analogies.

1: the fact that some of the fans of a certain thing can be ****s (insert whatever 4-letter-word you want in there) isn't necessarily a reflection on the thing itself. Imagine a sports team with a small group of particularly obnoxious, racist, sexist fans - it's not necessarily the sports team's fault, or even representative of their fans in general, but the ****-y fans still wear their colours and it can still put people off the team anyway. Alternately, Hitler was apparently a vegetarian, but that doesn't mean all vegetarians - or produce farmers - are Nazis.
I was just suggesting that there might be a bit of (unintentional) guilt by association going on, in other words.

2: Bigger organisations/companies have greater purchasing power and more widespread reach than smaller/niche ones. Hasbro has more 'pull'/influence over their suppliers and more widespread retail presence than 3PPs in the same way that Coles or Woolworths has more power and reach than some local mom-'n-pop organic-food store.
It's a little bit of an oversimplification, but that's the basic gist of it.

[Megatran]

1: the fact that some of the fans of a certain thing can be ****s (insert whatever 4-letter-word you want in there) isn't necessarily a reflection on the thing itself.

****s That's my login password.

[spiderken17]

Holy moly! I just got back from Bathurst and this is some pretty intense posting to come back to.
All I can say is that everyone has their own opinions and interests, if everyone had the same opinions and interests then the world would be a very, very boring place.

[evandouglas86]

...erm...wow! I really opened a can of worms didn't I? Well I can see mixed opinions about these but either way, everyone is god damn passionate about their transformers lol... Any way that's good to know because I am almost ready to open up my Aussy web company that is dedicated to importing transformers - hasbro ones that havent showed up in Aus, TakTom with out over pricing and ofcorse Tp transformers...and keeping the cost low because I for one am sick of these jacked up prices... The main reason I asked was that I was curious to see people's opinions on 3rd party and I think I received my answer! If your interested in me sending you a link when the site is up and running, add me on Skype at - evandouglas86 cheers everyone, and I hope you can all support me

[lancalot]

. Any way that's good to know because I am almost ready to open up my Aussy web company that is dedicated to importing transformers - hasbro ones that havent showed up in Aus, TakTom with out over pricing and ofcorse Tp transformers...and keeping the cost low because I for one am sick of these jacked up prices...

If your interested in me sending you a link when the site is up and running, add me on Skype at - evandouglas86 cheers everyone, and I hope you can all support me

Well good luck with that , and remember to post it up when you got it up and running , ill most welcome a cheaper postage rate for the figures .