KOs worth it?

[millhouse]

I think so. I'm not familiar with how downloading videos work, only started doing it last year when it was harder to find TF Prime eps to view on YouTube.

My old-standard devil's advocate comment is that pirating is like drug use, you support something you shouldn't be, but its for your personal use.

Using torrents is (by virtue of the fact that other people download off you as you download off other people) more like buying a kilo of cocaine, keeping part for yourself, and flogging the rest off in small sales on the street. You're effectively becoming the problem itself.

I think most people here are happy to deal with KOs for personal use, media for personal use, etc, but downloading via a torrent is very much a case of committing a larger offence than downloading from something like a newsgroup service or a filehosting service like Rapidshare.

Hope that makes some sense!

PS: Ain't judging you at all on this one!

[millhouse]

The other thing is deception. Counterfeits by their very nature attempt to deceive consumers into believing that they're the legitimate product. This doesn't happen w/ the kind of downloading that we're talking about.

I do have to call bullshit on this statement. There are a tonne of places that use these encodes and pirated copies as the basis of pirate DVDs. If you go to Bali (and yes, an Australian traveller won't be fooled), you'll see every film up for an academy award on sale for $2, with the better transfers being from pirated downloads, same with recent tv shows.

As someone who has been a production manager on an independent film that was pirated, and who took a deferred payment, I'm going to ask... are those pirates going to buy a copy of the film so that the film goes into profit and I get paid the $4,000 I'm owed?

No, they are not.

Now, I'm not deceiving myself into thinking I was ever going to get paid on that film - I knew it wouldn't make enough profit, etc (even though you can buy it at JB Hi-Fi and Amazon.com) but the reality is what it is. Don't deceive yourself that you're not part of a billion dollar problem.

That being said, I may or may not shop at the torrent store. But I do accept what I am doing and that there are consequences of it, regardless of how they affect me in little or no manner.

[Finback]

Me? I sometimes buy KOs, especially those bizarrely sized ones, or the strange - I have a weird KO of Liokaizer, except he has Cybertron rocket truck Red Alert for an arm. And he's only about as tall as a BW basic.

I mostly buy them for the weird factor. Hey, look, RiD Prime but in neon green, and shrunk to the size of a deluxe? I'll grab it. KO version of a Masterpiece? Nope. I'm happy to pay cheap prices for bizarro cheap quality crap, but I don't really go into buying KOs of "proper" stuff.

I once found a KO Dinozaur figure - the mammoth. The best bit is the instructions; translated into English via Latin. "INITIATE PATE AND PROPODIUM DEFORM." "FORM OF THE GOD ELEPHANT GHAZI".

[Sky Shadow]

The same argument couldn't be made for someone distributing episodes of Animated Season 3 recorded off Cartoon Network, because what are they taking away potential sales from? From DVDs/BRs that they're not producing?

With downloads, I don't pay for it, and AFAIK the person who uploaded the content isn't getting paid for it either. They're distributed for free by fans for fans.

I think so. I'm not familiar with how downloading videos work, only started doing it last year when it was harder to find TF Prime eps to view on YouTube.

People can make money when others watch their uploaded videos on YouTube, and although I believe that is only supposed to be for content they own the rights to, it is possible that there are dodgy people making money from videos they don't own. Likewise, I suspect that wherever else you get the videos from probably has some sort of advertising system whereby they make money from clicks or visits. Also, let's say there is a new Transformers series that was only released on pay TV in Australia, like Beast Machines was at the time, if I recall correctly. If you watch the videos online then shouldn't you ethically have to subscribe to the pay TV network? Similarly, if a Transformers series goes on free-to-air TV in Australia and fans with ratings boxes don't watch it because they've already downloaded it, it lessens the chances of the network buying future Transformers serials. Ergo, watching Transformers online is akin to buying knockoffs.

[millhouse]

Ergo, watching Transformers online is akin to buying knockoffs.

Bingo. Piracy is piracy.

I'm not going to hate on anyone who indulges in it, as it would be totally hypocritical. But I can certainly say I'm not ignorant to the effects and reality of it.

[GoktimusPrime]

That's a reasonably well thought out post and I agree with most of what you have written. There is one point however that's a bit ambiguous and that's "You are not paying money to the people who have supplied the illegitimate product (there is no illegitimate profit being made)". Now while you haven't directly paid for it, someone, somewhere already has. You're just getting it for free. So, by that rationale, if someone were to give you a KO for free, declared that it was in fact a counterfeit, and you had intentions to purchase the official toy when / if released, that would be OK?

All the Transformers Prime episodes I watched were taped off TV and then uploaded for download. I even get those ads at the end that tell you what other programmes are coming up on "The Hub," you know, where they squish the credits in half to show the advert and you can't hear the ending theme properly because the voice over guy is talking over it. So as far as I know, the person who supplied the material didn't pay for it.

My old-standard devil's advocate comment is that pirating is like drug use, you support something you shouldn't be, but its for your personal use.

Using torrents is (by virtue of the fact that other people download off you as you download off other people) more like buying a kilo of cocaine, keeping part for yourself, and flogging the rest off in small sales on the street. You're effectively becoming the problem itself.

I think most people here are happy to deal with KOs for personal use, media for personal use, etc, but downloading via a torrent is very much a case of committing a larger offence than downloading from something like a newsgroup service or a filehosting service like Rapidshare.

Once I've finished downloading the file, I immediately remove it from my "library," which AFAIK prevents anyone else from accessing what I've downloaded. Again, I'm really really really new to this whole downloading thing... so as far as I know, I'm not sharing it with anyone else. Unless I'm somehow doing it in a way that I'm not aware of. I'm by no means knowingly sharing any content that I've downloaded. I thought that deleting the file from my torrent program's library prevented others from accessing it, but if people are still able to access it through other parts of my hard drive which I thought was private (i.e. "My Videos"), then I guess I'll need to delete anything from that folder and keep copies on flash drives. Although I also have home family videos in that folder and it kinda feels weird if other bit torrent users are able to access these files too.

I do have to call bulls*** on this statement. There are a tonne of places that use these encodes and pirated copies as the basis of pirate DVDs.

In which case they are making counterfeits - hence back to my previous statement about counterfeits.

Now, I'm not deceiving myself into thinking I was ever going to get paid on that film - I knew it wouldn't make enough profit, etc (even though you can buy it at JB Hi-Fi and Amazon.com) but the reality is what it is. Don't deceive yourself that you're not part of a billion dollar problem.

That being said, I may or may not shop at the torrent store. But I do accept what I am doing and that there are consequences of it, regardless of how they affect me in little or no manner.

Store??? The way I download (I don't know if it's what you call torrenting or whatever) doesn't solicit me for ANY payment. So I'm not sure how I'm financially supporting an illicit industry if I'm not parting with any money.

May I also add that Transformers Prime has been the only show I've ever downloaded period. Even then, it was from the second half of Season 1 onwards, because that's when I stopped being able to find the eps on YouTube. So as far as I'm aware of, I'm not financially supporting video piracy. If someone can explain to me in a simple and clear way how I may have been doing so, then obviously I will reconsider continuing to do so in future.

People can make money when others watch their uploaded videos on YouTube, and although I believe that is only supposed to be for content they own the rights to, it is possible that there are dodgy people making money from videos they don't own.

That is correct. And I know people who've uploaded original content to YouTube, had others copy it and upload it onto their own channel, only to have YouTube staff shut it down -- although this is because the copyright violation was explicitly reported to YouTube. I'm not sure if YouTube bothers to act if violations aren't reported. <shrugs>

Likewise, I suspect that wherever else you get the videos from probably has some sort of advertising system whereby they make money from clicks or visits.

All the TF Animated and Prime eps that I watched on YouTube never had any adverts on them. So AFAIK they weren't paid for it. I know my YouTube videos don't have adverts and I don't get a cent from YouTube.

Also, let's say there is a new Transformers series that was only released on pay TV in Australia, like Beast Machines was at the time, if I recall correctly. If you watch the videos online then shouldn't you ethically have to subscribe to the pay TV network? Similarly, if a Transformers series goes on free-to-air TV in Australia and fans with ratings boxes don't watch it because they've already downloaded it, it lessens the chances of the network buying future Transformers serials. Ergo, watching Transformers online is akin to buying knockoffs.

In my personal opinion (and again, discussing ethics not law), I would agree with this once the content is broadcast on Australian television (pay TV or free to air). But I personally don't feel the same about the content when it hasn't yet been aired on Australian TV, and especially when it's not known if any Australian TV channels have even acquired the rights to broadcast it here. Thus at that stage, the content is not available in this region. Once the content is scheduled to be broadcast on Australian TV, then I absolutely agree that it's becomes more ethically dubious to continue downloading it, and I personally wouldn't do it. I still watch TF eps when they're broadcast locally too.

[millhouse]

All the Transformers Prime episodes I watched were taped off TV and then uploaded for download. I even get those ads at the end that tell you what other programmes are coming up on "The Hub," you know, where they squish the credits in half to show the advert and you can't hear the ending theme properly because the voice over guy is talking over it. So as far as I know, the person who supplied the material didn't pay for it.

Nor did they have the right to distribute it. Someone is making money - be it the hosting company (Rapidshare, whatever), the ads on the torrent site, etc.

Once I've finished downloading the file, I immediately remove it from my "library," which AFAIK prevents anyone else from accessing what I've downloaded. Again, I'm really really really new to this whole downloading thing... so as far as I know, I'm not sharing it with anyone else. Unless I'm somehow doing it in a way that I'm not aware of. I'm by no means knowingly sharing any content that I've downloaded. I thought that deleting the file from my torrent program's library prevented others from accessing it, but if people are still able to access it through other parts of my hard drive which I thought was private (i.e. "My Videos"), then I guess I'll need to delete anything from that folder and keep copies on flash drives. Although I also have home family videos in that folder and it kinda feels weird if other bit torrent users are able to access these files too.

Have a read of "bittorrent" on Wikipedia. Once you get your head around it, you'll understand. That's probably a pretty major thing to comprehend in terms of piracy because its (imho) the primary source of piracy online. You might now be downloading torrents (I don't know, because you haven't stated) but it's a reasonable assumption that its a possibility.

...doesn't solicit me for ANY payment. So I'm not sure how I'm financially supporting an illicit industry if I'm not parting with any money.

It's easy. You view a site with ads, someone is making money. Do you see a single ad on the site you download from? If so, someone is making money off someone else's work. Further, the demand to supply you (and most definitely others) with pirate copies gives people who pirate and produce counterfeit DVDs for a living a source for content. Does that make sense?

May I also add that Transformers Prime has been the only show I've ever downloaded period. Even then, it was from the second half of Season 1 onwards, because that's when I stopped being able to find the eps on YouTube. So as far as I'm aware of, I'm not financially supporting video piracy. If someone can explain to me in a simple and clear way how I may have been doing so, then obviously I will reconsider continuing to do so in future.


That is correct. And I know people who've uploaded original content to YouTube, had others copy it and upload it onto their own channel, only to have YouTube staff shut it down -- although this is because the copyright violation was explicitly reported to YouTube. I'm not sure if YouTube bothers to act if violations aren't reported. <shrugs>

I (pardon my language) fucking hate dealing with YouTube. I have short films online as screeners. They use licensed or copyright free music. The amount of bullshit disputes and unfairly placed ads that are placed over my videos until I dispute them and resolve the dispute, having someone else make money off the hard work of myself and my crew fucking disgusts me.

Why does that exist? Because assholes post shit on YouTube that they do not have the right to. Hence, copyright owners respond overly forceful.

All the TF Animated and Prime eps that I watched on YouTube never had any adverts on them. So AFAIK they weren't paid for it. I know my YouTube videos don't have adverts and I don't get a cent from YouTube.

As per my above comment, I've had Universal make money off my work, because of how the copyright system on YouTube works. I've never made a penny, nor do I choose to run ads on my videos because that isn't why I have them hosted on YouTube.

In my personal opinion (and again, discussing ethics not law), I would agree with this once the content is broadcast on Australian television (pay TV or free to air). But I personally don't feel the same about the content when it hasn't yet been aired on Australian TV, and especially when it's not known if any Australian TV channels have even acquired the rights to broadcast it here. Thus at that stage, the content is not available in this region. Once the content is scheduled to be broadcast on Australian TV, then I absolutely agree that it's becomes more ethically dubious to continue downloading it, and I personally wouldn't do it. I still watch TF eps when they're broadcast locally too.

It doesn't change the fact that, however you twist it, it's ethically wrong. Just because a house isn't being lived in doesn't allow me to live there during that time until the homeowners rock up. Regardless of me not damaging the property in any manner, it's wrong, legally and ethically.

Having been involved in the indie film industry (seriously, the film shot at my house over a period of a month was up on The Pirate Bay once it hit DVD), I can say that, personally, I view piracy as something I accept, partake in, and understand how it affects people.

Ethically or criminally, it's wrong. Whether you do it is entirely your choice, but take the time to understand why its wrong.

I'd like to clarify that copyright and piracy discussion is something I've spoken with friends and colleagues extensively. I'd hope you don't take my comments (besides the message of be aware of what you're doing) as an attack on you, Goktimus.

[GoktimusPrime]

You've given me some food for thought. Downloading is never something I 'wanted' to get into. As I said, I only started doing it a year or so ago when it became harder to view it on advert-free YouTube channels. And again, I ONLY ever did it for Transformers Prime. Never ever downloaded anything else.

What would you suggest as the "least unethical" means to view new Transformers eps? (other than waiting nearly a year for it to come out on DVD/BR) Unfortunately in an age of online social media, it becomes damn hard to avoid spoilers. I've already been exposed to a freakin' spoiler from the next TF film and it hasn't even come out yet! In the days before home broadband, I used to have a friend in the US record episodes of Transformers for me on VHS and send the tapes to me (and also another friend in Japan did the same thing for the JP TF series ). The only downside was I had to wait for the entire series to finish airing and they'd recorded it on video tape, then send the entire series to me to watch. But like I said, social media as we know it didn't exist then, so I didn't have people throw spoilers in my face as they all too easily can do now. And yeah, I'd watch the same US eps again when they were aired here. Broadcast quality PAL > grainy recorded NTSC!

But yeah, if someone can offer me an ethically better alternative to viewing content faster, then I'd be more than happy to take it under advisement. Makes me wish TV stations would Fast Track Transformers shows (i.e. broadcast them only a few hours after the US). Heck, look what the ABC did when they did a simulcast of the recent Doctor Who specials (and then repeated them over and over again for the next 2 days, and also had them available on iView). It was a great way for me to watch those eps repeatedly on ABC2 and iView, without needing to resort to ethically dubious means.

[5FDP]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but you’ve pretty much stated that you will continue downloading understanding that it is morally unethical and illegal, until such time that an alternative can be identified which benefits your personal situation? Yep, that pretty much sums up the same justification collectors have for buying KO’s.

This reminds me, a new episode of The Big Bang Theory aired in the US today

Bingo. Piracy is piracy.

I'm not going to hate on anyone who indulges in it, as it would be totally hypocritical. But I can certainly say I'm not ignorant to the effects and reality of it.

QFT!

[GoktimusPrime]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but you’ve pretty much stated that you will continue downloading understanding that it is morally unethical and illegal, until such time that an alternative can be identified which benefits your personal situation?

I never said that. I am considering other alternatives, such as using overseas contacts to directly send me their recordings. This is what I do w/ Japanese TF series. Get a friend in Japan to record the show, then send it directly to me on a disk. No uploading. No downloading. It's similar to what I used to do w/ asking people to record shows on VHS and send the tapes to me. I could consider asking a US contact to do the same w/ a US TF show.

I actually HAVEN'T DECIDED what I'm going to do w/ any future TF shows. As I said, I'm taking things under consideration... this doesn't mean that I've made any decision either way. But in the meantime, I'm open to suggestions. I'm not rushing this decision, since there's no TF show currently coming out soon...

Yep, that pretty much sums up the same justification collectors have for buying KO’s.

I'm only talking about downloading content that is NOT available here. I object to doing the same thing once the content becomes available. And as I said, I ALWAYS purchase the legitimate DVDs/BRs when as soon as they become commercially available -- all my TF Prime DVDs were preordered. So at the time that I downloaded the shows, the legit copies did not exist to be purchased. KOs on the other hand are counterfeits of toys that have already been made available. A person who purchases a KO MP Lambor is deliberately skipping the official product that already exists in favour of buying an imitation.

I'm NOT saying that downloading is a guilt-free and totally "innocent" practice either. But IMHO it's a different issue from KOs. Because when I see people talking about obtaining pirated wares, I think, "Why don't you just buy the real thing?" -- when it comes to content that isn't available, the answer is simply, "Because the real thing doesn't exist." But this isn't the case with KOs. Maybe if people were to starting counterfeiting toys long before they were officially released, then that would be a different issue. So again, I'm not saying that I think that downloading content is some kind of innocent and saintly practice by any stretch of the imagination... but I think it's a different kettle of fish than buying KOs, because with the latter the choice of purchasing the legit product already exists.

-------------------------------------------------------

What do you guys think about downloading scans of comics that are long out of print? e.g. remember when certain web sites used to host scans of the entire Marvel G1 comic book run (both US and UK)? These sites have since been shut down or removed all their scans since Titan Books acquired the licence to reprint the Marvel comics (and now it's IDW). I'm happy to buy these reprints (though IDW's quality is pretty shocking and nowhere near as good as Titan's). There used to be a time when you'd come across someone who's unfamiliar with the G1 comics, and you could direct them to one of the fan sites that hosted the scans. Nowadays I just tell people to go buy the reprints.

But what did you guys think about these sites BEFORE Titan acquired the reprint licence and they desisted from sharing their scans? I remember when they took their scans down, some fans were livid... but I was in support of that decision because it made perfect sense that once a company acquired the licence, it meant that the content would soon become commercially available, and thus the administrators of those sites stopped sharing the content.