What if KO's weren't really KO's?

[kurdt_the_goat]

Setting aside the fact that there's some obvious poor quality KO's - the kind of trash you see in $2 stores or Red Dot etc - where they may take artwork and general designs but are often a mishmash of different toys and not complete mould steals.

Some KO's like the recent ones for Masterpiece figures are nigh on identical right down to packaging. Is it that far of a stretch to imagine that instead of being KO's, they're legitimate figures produced by TakaraTomy, that for whatever reason are released by them under the guise of KO manufacturers?

I know it's common to think that some KO's are from the exact same factory as originals, but it's always assumed it's some no-gooder doing the deed after hours, not the legit manufacturer.

TT selling KO's might be a way to recoup more investment on a mould (perhaps in countries were high price items aren't as tolerated), or being able to sell the factory rejects that are otherwise write-offs?

If the same factories TT use are really behind all the KO's, how can they get away with it and continue a good relationship with the official creators? TT must surely know what's going on! We never really hear much about TT (as opposed to Hasbro) fighting against KO's, which makes the cynic in me wonder if they're in on the whole thing!

Assuming that were the case, and if they chose to honestly publicize that some toys we know as KO's were actually legit, but just rejects or not held to the same quality standards - would you have less of a problem with their existence?

If KO's were in some way keeping the legit company alive through their profits, wouldn't that be a mind blown kind of scenario for everyone!?

[5FDP]

That would be HILARIOUS!

Meanwhile at the Parramatta Fair -

Ozformer - "So how much for this Grimlock Bommander?" *snicker*
Evil KO Peddler - "Again... that would be $150" *sigh*
Ozformer - "You can't be serious??! You do know it's a Knock-Off right?"
Evil KO Peddler - "Ummm... haven't you heard? They've been declared 'official' since TT confessed to their production as a means to recoup their costs"
Ozformer - "Oh... really? Hmmm... in that case I'll take all the Dinobots you have back there" *big grin*
Evil KO Heroic Peddler - "Yeah, well... the price just went up to $180 each for being such a douche"

[VERT]

So your saying they could be what they do with factory seconds. Dont know if it's true but I like it

[tron07]

factories owners might do the dodgy deeds but I doubt TT will do such thing.

Its known as the 3rd shift. 1st and 2nd shift is legit, while the 3rd shift operates at midnight and supply all the KO products using the actual mold and lower QC

[DELTAprime]

We know for a fact that if the people at the factory Takara (or any other corporation for that matter) has hired to produce the product are not above board they will use the official molds to make "lunch time specials".

As far as 3rd parties go the guys at Seibertron think they know who is orchestrating the whole 3rd party racket and despite all the different companies there apparently is a single person or group at the center of it. It would be hilarious if it turned out to be someone from Hasbro or Takara. OK it wouldn't be someone from Takara, the Japanese are to honourable to do that.

[kurdt_the_goat]

Got a link for that Seibertron discussion? Wouldn't mind having a read of the theories!

I don't know... can you imagine the TT representative coming to the factories to inspect the output? He's getting the grand tour while naughty factory works scuttle about in the shadows shuffling KO MP's out of his view? They can't possibly be oblivious to the whole thing? The only argument i could see for TT to continue using such places (if they know this is going on), is that they simply have little choice in the matter. So if you can't beat em, join em!

[DELTAprime]

Got a link for that Seibertron discussion? Wouldn't mind having a read of the theories!

They mentioned it on a recent podcast, late last year I believe. I wasn't a major discussion more like an offhand comment.

Paraphrasing here: We are getting close to figuring out the guy thats running this. Most of the companies are taking orders from one guy or group.

That was about the extent of it. They allow talk on their forums about 3rd parties over at Seibertron in specific forums like we do, but don't report on 3rd parties.

[GoktimusPrime]

OK it wouldn't be someone from Takara, the Japanese are to honourable to do that.

Japan also has pretty strict laws when it comes to protecting intellectual property too. KOs are extremely rare in Japan, and there are some Japanese collectors who actually buy KOs because they're so hard to come by! In many other countries, you find KOs in cheap discount stores and markets, but in Japan most KOs I find are in collectable stores like Hero Gangu and Mandarake (although stores like Mandarake do clearly label which toys are KOs so as to fully inform customers). Also, using someone else's intellectual property without consent is frowned upon in Japan. Ever noticed how Japanese fan sites tend to have more 'original content' than non-Japanese sites? i.e. they're more like to have fan art than scans of official art or screen caps. I've seen some Japanese fans criticise non-Japanese fan sites for their "unoriginal" content. For example, if you want to find Japanese G1 box art or screen grabs etc., you're more likely to find them on non-Japanese than on Japanese fan sites.
e.g.
Dr. Sigma's Super Robot Life Research Institute
Botch the Crab
^Both are fan sites that archive G1 tech specs. The former for Japanese tech specs, the latter for Anglophone tech specs. Notice that Dr. Sigma's site is much more text intensive than Botch's. Even the tech specs are all typed out, not scanned - whereas Botch's are all scans, and there's also an archive of scanned box and card art. Dr. Sigma's site has very few scanned images, and they're more along the lines of G1 comic covers, but not scans of frames from inside the comic.

I'm not saying that either of those sites is better or worse than the other, but both reflect different cultural values from those who maintain them. Botch's site freely shares scans of G1 tech specs and art, whereas Dr. Sigma's site only shares the textual component but not the artwork.

So if there has been any counterfeiting being done at TakaraTOMY's factory, I would be mightily surprised if it were sanctioned by TakaraTOMY themselves. I suspect it would be more likely to be rogue elements at the factory doing it without TakTOM's knowledge. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why HasTak are considering moving manufacturing away from China to Vietnam (some BotShots are made in Vietnam if you check their copyright stamps).

[Bidoofdude]

Japan also has pretty strict laws when it comes to protecting intellectual property too. KOs are extremely rare in Japan, and there are some Japanese collectors who actually buy KOs because they're so hard to come by! In many other countries, you find KOs in cheap discount stores and markets, but in Japan most KOs I find are in collectable stores like Hero Gangu and Mandarake (although stores like Mandarake do clearly label which toys are KOs so as to fully inform customers). Also, using someone else's intellectual property without consent is frowned upon in Japan. Ever noticed how Japanese fan sites tend to have more 'original content' than non-Japanese sites? i.e. they're more like to have fan art than scans of official art or screen caps. I've seen some Japanese fans criticise non-Japanese fan sites for their "unoriginal" content. For example, if you want to find Japanese G1 box art or screen grabs etc., you're more likely to find them on non-Japanese than on Japanese fan sites.
e.g.
Dr. Sigma's Super Robot Life Research Institute
Botch the Crab
^Both are fan sites that archive G1 tech specs. The former for Japanese tech specs, the latter for Anglophone tech specs. Notice that Dr. Sigma's site is much more text intensive than Botch's. Even the tech specs are all typed out, not scanned - whereas Botch's are all scans, and there's also an archive of scanned box and card art. Dr. Sigma's site has very few scanned images, and they're more along the lines of G1 comic covers, but not scans of frames from inside the comic.

I'm not saying that either of those sites is better or worse than the other, but both reflect different cultural values from those who maintain them. Botch's site freely shares scans of G1 tech specs and art, whereas Dr. Sigma's site only shares the textual component but not the artwork.

So if there has been any counterfeiting being done at TakaraTOMY's factory, I would be mightily surprised if it were sanctioned by TakaraTOMY themselves. I suspect it would be more likely to be rogue elements at the factory doing it without TakTOM's knowledge. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why HasTak are considering moving manufacturing away from China to Vietnam (some BotShots are made in Vietnam if you check their copyright stamps).

Though in the paranoid world (I suspect myself being quite paranoid myself sometimes) the absence of KOs in Japan could be used to throw off the idea that they may be, though what you said is much more plausible.

It's a tricky subject, I'll admit. We'll probably never know.

Also, haven't noticed this myself, but have the presence of KOs on sites such as eBay boosted the prices of legit, vintage G1 figures? I haven't been in TFs for long on eBay so I wouldn't know, but someone with experience in the trend of sales of G1 figures on eBay could provide some light on it? Just a thought.

[5FDP]

Also, haven't noticed this myself, but have the presence of KOs on sites such as eBay boosted the prices of legit, vintage G1 figures?

It's had the opposite effect actually in that prices for vintage have gone down.

I remember prior to the KO and prior to the TT reissue (which came after), Ratbat was selling for well over $100. When the KO was released, the prices came down to about $80 and then when the reissue came along, I saw them as cheap as $20.

My guess is that with KO's being so common these days on eBay, it's scaring off buyers and making it harder for legit sellers.