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Thread: The Pros & Cons of Michael Bay - discussion topic

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  1. #1
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    People keep forgetting that AOE made most of its money from China (I wonder why?).
    Lets do some numbers work:
    AOE 'only' made 245m in the USA, 130m of that in the first weekend.
    By comparison, DotM made 345m, RotF 400m, TF1 340m (These are US numbers, to keep things consistent).

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    When was the last time we saw a toy masterpiece for the movie?
    As I understand it, the point of the Masterpiece series was to bring contemporary engineering to classic toys/characters. There's no need to do that to movieverse characters because they already benefit from current engineering. As I said in my review of APS-01U, one opinion was that RotF leader Optimus was practically a Masterpiece already.

    There was also the short-lived Movie Masterpiece series from Takara, with Starscream and Bumblebee. I'm kind of surprised that Sentinel Prime wasn't released in that line with a new paint job.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good, per se.
    The 'popular vs. good' debate is one I won't enter into here, since whether something like a movie is good (or at least likeable) or not is a matter of personal opinion. My point was that enough people liked it to result in the movies having the box office numbers that they have, so the filmmakers must be doing something right.

    This doesn't help Transformers.
    No, but my point is that Michael Bay can and does do characterisation well.

    The sequence of events is the plot. What the plot is actually about is the story. And the quality of a story is determined or driven by its characters. Not in terms of what they're doing, that's the plot. It's what's happening to them that drives the story.

    AoE Optimus Prime is the only Transformer character who's had any development in these four films, so let's use him as an example (because there's no other ). In the beginning of the film, Optimus Prime has become a dark and embittered character. Having lost his faith in humanity, he has become spiritually lost. Through his relationship with Cade Yeager, Optimus Prime goes on a personal journey of rediscovery where he must learn to trust again. This is an arduous and difficult journey for him, as he encounters obstacles along the way as he delves deeper to discover the terrible truth behind the humans' betrayal against the Autobots. Now the problem is that this did NOT _drive_ the story of Age of Extinction. It was more something that almost happened in the background while other stuff was happening. AoE would have been a much better story if Optimus Prime's character arc were allowed to take centre stage.

    Characterisation is much like the 'engine' of a story. The better it is, the stronger that 'engine' is the the greater drive a story has. Stories with weak character-development are like cars with weak engines. Yes, they can function, they can move, but they're not great. A movie that has loads of spectacular visuals and thrilling action but weak characterisation is like a car with say the chassis of a Lamborghini Aventador, but the engine of a Holden Gemini.
    Ok, I get what you're saying here. You've also hit upon (not for the first time)a major issue with the movies: the Transformers are often treated as peripheral or secondary characters, for whatever reason. There is character development and an emotional journey taking place within each movie - just not with the Transformers most of the time. Again, this is an issue with the writing, not necessarily Bay's direction. That's the point I was trying to make by suggesting people watch Bay's other movies.

    And why does Bay get the blame? He's the director. The director is like the captain of the ship or the head of state of a country -- he's not solely responsible for everything, but as the leader he accepts all praise or criticism. And it's because the director has the ultimate say in what goes into a film; he can veto and alter the script as he sees fit or elect to stick to the script. That's the burden of leadership -- the captain sails or sinks with his ship.
    Again, my point was that the script is what the director has to work with. Everything - including the director's choices - comes from there. Even so, as I typed before, it seems Michael Bay is a favourite target - Ridley Scott doesn't get blamed for Prometheus, or Sam Mendes for Skyfall, movies that have been criticised for questionable writing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
    No, but my point is that Michael Bay can and does do characterisation well.
    Just out of interest, is your real name Michael Bay?
    It's ok if it is. We just hate your lack of talent, not you personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
    That's the point I was trying to make by suggesting people watch Bay's other movies.
    Yeah but... I'm a fan of Transformers, not a fan of Michael Bay (although I don't mind Bad Boys; other Bay movies don't really interest me all that much ). The Age of Extinction toys were fairly ordinary on the whole, but we know that they're made by the same people at Hasbro and TakaraTOMY who give us stuff like Classicsverse and Masterpiece. So we know that they're capable of creating excellent Transformers toys. But this does not at all impact on the Age of Extinction toys. We can often see good and bad stuff from the same creative people, but the good stuff doesn't necessarily make the bad stuff any better. After all, Star Wars IV: A New Hope demonstrates that George Lucas can make a good Star Wars movie.

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    drifand is offline Rank 6 - Dedicated Member
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    I did watch other Bay movies. Some are great. And like I said, his TF line went from not bad (good in fact) to urm... really? And since I am not the only one who thinks this way, I am glad.

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    The first movie captured the basic spirit of the G1 cartoon reasonably well. The sequels not so much.

    So... how many keen fans of the movies are gonna be watching Revenge of the Fallen on TV tonight? IMHO a good movie is one that you love to rewatch over and over again. e.g. if The Empire Strikes Back were airing tonight, and I had time to watch it, I'd definitely see it. So... I wonder how many people who have the time to watch this movie tonight, will actually tune in and watch it from start to finish, or go find something else to do in their spare time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    The first movie captured the basic spirit of the G1 cartoon reasonably well. The sequels not so much.

    So... how many keen fans of the movies are gonna be watching Revenge of the Fallen on TV tonight? IMHO a good movie is one that you love to rewatch over and over again. e.g. if The Empire Strikes Back were airing tonight, and I had time to watch it, I'd definitely see it. So... I wonder how many people who have the time to watch this movie tonight, will actually tune in and watch it from start to finish, or go find something else to do in their spare time.
    I think my sock drawer needs rearranging...

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-bot View Post
    I think my sock drawer needs rearranging...
    Bahahahahahahahahaha!

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    Smint is offline Rank 6 - Dedicated Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonac View Post
    People keep forgetting that AOE made most of its money from China (I wonder why.
    2 reasons. Li Bing Bing and Hong Kong. Its partially a business decision when film makers court international stars and shoot overseas.


    Flames on optimus, bumblebee peeing, ethnic stereotype robots etc are all Bay's idea. Even the designs are his.

    Bay always loves saying he has a great relationship with the us military because he always makes them look good which he does. This is the kind of power a director has.

    In the end it's always the director's call. He doesn't shoot if he's not happy with the script and writing. How much input is his only they know but I'm pretty certain all those obnoxious humans, those awful personalities are all his idea.

    Do we all know why we fell in love with g1 and still remember them fondly. It's was because of the characters not the action.

    Think about what defines magnus, starscream, megatron, rodimus, optimus. Now think about the movie characters ..yes I'm drawing a blank too.

    I can remember the hash cookie eating parents, Ken jeong, John Malkovich why the fuck can't I remember any of the tf's?

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    Can't remember any TFs?! What about that one that turned into a vehicle? Or there was that other one with the thing and he did all that stuff and Optimus was like "oh" and then Megatron comes in and he's like "AARGH".

    Ahh, those memorable Bayformers. Good times.

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