The Random Transformers Thoughts Thread

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

There were a few different things going on.


...So, I was poisoned against the concept from the beginning. I appreciate the concept more now. Especially because I have the funds to get the numbers of toys to make the play pattern work. It was really well done this time.

That said I ignore the Titan Master's name and just treat them as small versions/drones of the larger robot.

Aaah, OK. I understand. Thanks!

I must admit I did feel a bit the same about that time too. With Transformers coming out with so many space and cybertonian modes, I think they lost the "Robots in disguise" thing that made them special. As a kid I always loved looking at cars and thinking, "Wow, that could be Bumblebee in there, but I can't tell."

I think my true love for HMs and pals didn't really kick off until later on. Likewise with pretenders. I like them now and have quite a few, but a the time, I thought they were stupid. Dumb crappy robot modes, vehicles that don't look like anything and stupid "inaction" figures. Now though I like them, admittedly it's more about the cheesy badness of the toys over anything else

[FatalityPitt]

I've read on some threads where people mentioned that a lot of the Titans Return characters (who aren't original Headmasters) don't need the Titanmaster gimmick and they're be better off without it. For some characters (like Galvatron), I agree; but (respectfully) I think a lot of non-original-Headmasters benefited from it too, because it gave the vehicle modes cockpits, and the Titanmasters gave those cockpits a purpose.

I think the types of Transformers that don't need the Titanmaster gimmick are those that become realistic vehicles, and the ones that DO need the gimmick are the ones that become less realistic-looking vehicles. For example, if we look at Universe/Henkei Prowl, he doesn't need a Titanmaster/driver and cockpit, because I can see he obviously becomes a police car (there's the wheels, doors, light-bar, etc). On the other hand, if we take Titans Return Blurr (which is basically G1 Blurr), most people unfamiliar with the character/design would wonder "What is that?? It can't be an automobile, there's no wheels!" But when the cockpit opens and they can see the driver, then it becomes apparent that it's meant to be a futuristic hovercar. A similar case with other characters like Kup, Scourge and Topspin. Without the cockpits and pilots/drivers, it's more difficult to think of their alt-modes as modes of transport. Without the cockpits and pilots, they're just weird shapes with wheels and/or wings attached to them.

Sure, the Titanmaster gimmick doesn't add to their looks in robot mode, but in alt-mode; it drives home the notion that these are meant to be vehicles. So I think the Titanmaster gimmick is good, and even necessary for sci-fi/fantasy/futuristic alt-modes because it makes them more believable as vehicles.

[GoktimusPrime]

I respectfully disagree. What a vehicle really needs is just a visible window to show that that's where the pilot or driver would be. That's really it. It doesn't need to be functional. Heck, look at a lot of the original Action Master characters like G1 Krok. That toy had no alt mode but they sculpted in 'vestigial' faux alt mode kibble to indicate what these new characters used to transform into. With Krok you can clearly see the cockpit windows on his chest. Granted this is the only reliable alt mode clue on this toy - we don't know if it was meant to be an aircraft, boat, submarine, land vehicle etc. But you get my point. We know that he was meant to have transformed into something with a cockpit - he had a vehicle mode, not a beast mode. That's why I personally am not interested in Titans Return Krok (nothing wrong with the toy, just not my thing). If they'd released the Timelines redeco of stealth bomber Megatron as a regular store release on the other hand, I'd be all over that.

Look at G1 Hot Rod for example. MP9 is the only version of that character with a functional cockpit (although there are no figures that can actually fit inside it) yet while it's a nice touch, I don't think that it makes the vehicle mode look any more or less identifiable as a vehicle compared to G1, Classics, MP28 or TR Hot Rod. I'm not including Alternators/KISS Play Hot Rod because that's not a fantasy mode.

↑The MP on the left has a functional cockpit while the one on the right does not. I don't think that having a functional cockpit makes a lick of difference in making either toy's alt mode look more or less like a car.

Compare say Universe Cyclonus with Titans Return Scourge - both toys are fairly G1 accurate CHUGUR-style updates of their characters, but Cyclonus is a Targetmaster whereas Scourge is now a Headmaster. IMO Cyclonus is still a really nice toy without needing to sacrifice his Targetmaster gimmick for becoming a Headmaster. The toy has a clearly visible cockpit. The fact that it cannot hold a pilot is irrelevant. All of the TR toys we've seen would still be equally as awesome if they weren't Headmasters. The robot heads would easily occupy another spot on the toy in alt mode, such as the cavity that is now their pilot compartments or other areas. So I really don't think that the Headmaster gimmick has enhanced or added to any of the TR toys. Not even the characters who were originally Headmasters, but at least there's a canonical justification for those characters. Look at the IDWverse - the G1 ~Master characters aren't ~Masters there (except Scorponok). Brainstorm, Domey, Bompaway, Fortress Maximus, Kup, Misfire etc. - none of them have their Master gimmicks. Yet they all have recognisable alt modes, and if Hasbro were to make toys based on their designs without the gimmicks I think that they would still be recognisable.

What you ultimately want in a fantasy alt mode are enough distinctive features to make people recognise it for what it is. Four wheels and a windscreen, yeah it's a car. Wings, stabilisers and a cockpit, yes it's a plane. Just look at any G1 Transformer with an animal mode, none of them were actually realistic. The Dinobots, Insecticons, Predacons etc. all transformed into robotic animals, not actual animals. No fur, scales etc., just metal. But they had enough distinctive features to make them immediately recognisable as what they were meant to be. e.g. You look at G1 Snarl's Dinobot mode and you know straight away that it's a Stegosaurus. It's a fictitious robotic stegosaurus - there's no way in hell that it's ever going to work as a robot in disguise - but you can still see it.

Having said all that... I don't think that the Headmaster gimmick negatively impacts on these toys either. The Headmasters are, for the most part, just detachable accessories. But as I've said before, the thing that I'm not loving about TR is just how they're making every 'bot and his dog into freakin' Headmasters. In G1 only a handful of Transformers were ever Headmasters. They were a special bunch. Now everyone's becoming a Headmaster and well... it doesn't feel so special anymore.

It's like what Syndrome said in The Incredibles, "...when everyone's super, no one will be."

[FatalityPitt]

@ Goktimus (the above is too long to quote)

I'll agree to respectfully disagree. I personally believe the cockpits improve the aesthetic and play-value of the alt-modes, and help support the notion that it's a toy of a car/jet/tank/what-have-you. If we didn't care about the attention to detail invested in the alt-modes and only bought Transformers for the robot-modes, then Hasbro/Takara may as well produce them without rolling wheels. Given the choice, do you reckon a Star Wars collector would want to buy a Tie Fighter with or without a cockpit and pilot?

[GoktimusPrime]

I agree that it does add to the play value of the alt-mode, but it's not a deal-breaker for me. And you don't have to be a Headmaster to have this feature anyway. Look at figures like TR Wheelie, Bumblebee, Chase and Brawn - none of them are Headmasters but they all have functional cockpits for drivers, just like the G1 Diaclone Cars, Dinobots and Insecticons. BT/ALT and Human Alliance figures all have functional driver's seats too, yet none of them are Headmasters. Look at Platinum Edition Omega Supreme. They removed the Headmaster gimmick on that toy but the alt mode isn't any better or worse than Energon Omega Supreme's because of it.

I think that having a functional cockpit and being a Headmaster are two fundamentally unrelated gimmicks. Heck, not all Headmasters even have true pilot compartments - Weirdwolf, Horri-Bull, Squeezeplay, Fangry etc. - they all just have storage compartments for their Nebulans, not cockpits. I'd say that even G1 Nightbeat and Siren don't have true cockpits either since their windows are solid plastic. There's no way you can see Muzzle or Quig sitting in there. The original G1 Optimus Prime toy on the other hand has multiple pilot seats - 2 in the truck cab, 6 on Roller and 3 on Combat Deck! Seeing those little seats in there totally helps support the notion of it being a vehicle.

Star Wars collectors would want a cockpit and pilot with their vehicles because the vehicles are meant to be piloted. The pilots are the characters, not the vehicles. Transformers is different because the robots are the characters. Okay, it's really nice that MP10 comes with Spike and MP Magnus comes with Spike and Daniel etc., but really... it's not the core play value of that alt mode. None of the MP Cars come with drivers and I don't think anyone cares. Look at Binaltech/Alternators - none of them had drivers, but boy are they great toys! Binaltech Asterisk and KISS Play later gave us drivers... but you look at say BT/ALT Lambor vs BTA Sunstreaker. Does Lambor really suffer from not coming with a race queen driver? Is BT Broadblast an inherently better toy because it comes with Lumina and Skids doesn't?

While having a cockpit and/or pilot is nice, I don't find it essential. And it can be done without making them into Headmasters. Just build in compartments for pilots and include small driver figurines - just like Diaclone!

DI-A-CLONNNNNNNNE!

[FatalityPitt]

.

Star Wars collectors would want a cockpit and pilot with their vehicles because the vehicles are meant to be piloted. The pilots are the characters, not the vehicles. Transformers is different because the robots are the characters. Okay, it's really nice that MP10 comes with Spike and MP Magnus comes with Spike and Daniel etc., but really... it's not the core play value of that alt mode. None of the MP Cars come with drivers and I don't think anyone cares. Look at Binaltech/Alternators - none of them had drivers, but boy are they great toys! Binaltech Asterisk and KISS Play later gave us drivers... but you look at say BT/ALT Lambor vs BTA Sunstreaker. Does Lambor really suffer from not coming with a race queen driver? Is BT Broadblast an inherently better toy because it comes with Lumina and Skids doesn't?

While having a cockpit and/or pilot is nice, I don't find it essential. And it can be done without making them into Headmasters. Just build in compartments for pilots and include small driver figurines - just like Diaclone!

DI-A-CLONNNNNNNNE!

Sure, the pilot/driver isn't essential for Transformers. However, I feel that it does add value, especially if there's a cockpit/driver's seat, because it gives that feature a purpose instead of just leaving it as an empty space. Also a cockpit/driver's seat is a welcome detail to see in a vehicular toy, so by extension a pilot/driver is also a nice thing to have to complete the package.

BTW, I don't think TR is a perfect line, but the quality of the designs are the best they've been in years as far as Transformers go. My gripe with the line is the choice of characters to their size classes. I'm not fond of the idea that the Junior Headmasters are just heads with accessories that look like their alt-modes. Also, characters like Krok and Topspin look a little out of place in a line revolving around Headmasters.

IF it were up to me, and I was planning the line; there would be no Titanmaster size class ($8-$10 range), or if there was; I'd use new/different characters to fill that class. Instead characters like Nightbeat, Fangry, Horri-bull, etc would be in the Deluxe class roster (not Topspin, Perceptor, etc, unless there were still empty slots left at the end). Of course, since the budget is limited and moulds would need to be reused, I'd allow these characters to be redecos of the original 7 HMs, e.g. Fangry as a redeco of Mindwipe (or Weirdwolf), Squeezplay as a redeco of Skullsmasher, Nighbeat/Siren as redecoes of Chromedome, etc. It's not faithful to the original G1, but hey, a few years back Perceptor was re-imagined in the RTS line as a red-truck instead of a microscope, so why not?

Characters like Topspin, Quake and Krok are welcome, and some are excellent toys; but they aren't characters I would have thought about if I were to build the line exclusively around Headmasters. I wouldn't have ever thought to make Topspin a Headmaster, but I think it worked out well.. Surprisingly

[GoktimusPrime]

My gripe with the line is the choice of characters to their size classes. I'm not fond of the idea that the Junior Headmasters are just heads with accessories that look like their alt-modes. Also, characters like Krok and Topspin look a little out of place in a line revolving around Headmasters.

Exactly why them being Headmasters doesn't do anything for me. It just feels out of place as a gimmick. Having them in a line of Headmasters is fine by me because 1987-88 saw a lot of non-Headmaster toys released alongside the Headmasters anyway (Targetmasters, Clones, Throttlebots, Pretenders, Triggerbots etc.). I have no problem with characters like Krok and Topspin being released in TR, I just would've preferred it if they weren't Headmasters. After all, not every toy in Combiner Wars was a gestalt. CHUGUR has never been about releasing the characters in G1-chronological order anyway. As long as they keep hittin' the remaining G1 characters who've never been done as CHUGUR toys before then I'm one very happy chappy. Although I don't care for Broadside being a Headmaster, I am very chuffed at finally being able to complete my CHUGUR Autobot Triple Changers.

IF it were up to me, and I was planning the line; there would be no Titanmaster size class ($8-$10 range), or if there was; I'd use new/different characters to fill that class. Instead characters like Nightbeat, Fangry, Horri-bull, etc would be in the Deluxe class roster

I quite like how they're releasing the Japanese Headmaster Warriors as Titan Masters. Only have Sawback atm but would love to get Shuffler and the rest.

[tinyJazz]

I've read on some threads where people mentioned that a lot of the Titans Return characters (who aren't original Headmasters) don't need the Titanmaster gimmick and they're be better off without it. For some characters (like Galvatron), I agree; but (respectfully) I think a lot of non-original-Headmasters benefited from it too, because it gave the vehicle modes cockpits, and the Titanmasters gave those cockpits a purpose.

I think the types of Transformers that don't need the Titanmaster gimmick are those that become realistic vehicles, and the ones that DO need the gimmick are the ones that become less realistic-looking vehicles. For example, if we look at Universe/Henkei Prowl, he doesn't need a Titanmaster/driver and cockpit, because I can see he obviously becomes a police car (there's the wheels, doors, light-bar, etc). On the other hand, if we take Titans Return Blurr (which is basically G1 Blurr), most people unfamiliar with the character/design would wonder "What is that?? It can't be an automobile, there's no wheels!" But when the cockpit opens and they can see the driver, then it becomes apparent that it's meant to be a futuristic hovercar. A similar case with other characters like Kup, Scourge and Topspin. Without the cockpits and pilots/drivers, it's more difficult to think of their alt-modes as modes of transport. Without the cockpits and pilots, they're just weird shapes with wheels and/or wings attached to them.

Sure, the Titanmaster gimmick doesn't add to their looks in robot mode, but in alt-mode; it drives home the notion that these are meant to be vehicles. So I think the Titanmaster gimmick is good, and even necessary for sci-fi/fantasy/futuristic alt-modes because it makes them more believable as vehicles.

Interesting points, but I have to disagree. Titan Masters are completely unnecessary. It's regressing into the played-out piloted mech genre, which, to me, is the polar opposite of what makes Transformers great.

I really don't think you need a driver to make sense of a toy having a cockpit. Especially if you already know it transforms into a robot and that the vehicle with a cockpit is just its disguise. If people have trouble seeing "sci-fi vehicle" when looking at Blurr's alt-mode they probably have a limited imagination and aren't the target audience for an action figure.

Also, I've always thought headmasters was the dumbest transformers gimmick ever and I was genuinely surprised that hasbro decided to resurrect it. I do think they improved on it though by adding the playset/base concept for the little dudes to run around in.

[kurdt_the_goat]

I must admit I did feel a bit the same about that time too. With Transformers coming out with so many space and cybertonian modes, I think they lost the "Robots in disguise" thing that made them special. As a kid I always loved looking at cars and thinking, "Wow, that could be Bumblebee in there, but I can't tell."

Why do the Transformers transform at all if not for means of stealth or transport? Arguably they're still in disguise on Cybertron, if looked at from the perspective of the opposing faction, who'd be familiar with Cybertronian vehicles. Just from your puny fleshling perspective it can't be a disguise if you never knew what it was being disguised as!

I think the types of Transformers that don't need the Titanmaster gimmick are those that become realistic vehicles, and the ones that DO need the gimmick are the ones that become less realistic-looking vehicles. For example, if we look at Universe/Henkei Prowl, he doesn't need a Titanmaster/driver and cockpit, because I can see he obviously becomes a police car (there's the wheels, doors, light-bar, etc). On the other hand, if we take Titans Return Blurr (which is basically G1 Blurr), most people unfamiliar with the character/design would wonder "What is that?? It can't be an automobile, there's no wheels!" But when the cockpit opens and they can see the driver, then it becomes apparent that it's meant to be a futuristic hovercar. A similar case with other characters like Kup, Scourge and Topspin. Without the cockpits and pilots/drivers, it's more difficult to think of their alt-modes as modes of transport. Without the cockpits and pilots, they're just weird shapes with wheels and/or wings attached to them.

So they probably put cockpits in pre-masters Cybertron modes initially as an attempt to convince the audience they were actual vehicles and not just flying shapes. But they don't really need cockpits do they? Hardly seems necessary when there were no humans to pilot them (to begin with). I guess you have the possibility of humanoid aliens or non-transforming robots/drones piloting them. But probably, Headmasters came about from a need to reconcile why the Cybertron modes had cockpits to begin with (and cause they's cool ). From that point of view i can agree that Cybertron modes benefit most from having a Headmaster and in the case of toys, functional, scaled cockpit for them.

[Jellico]

Also, I've always thought headmasters was the dumbest transformers gimmick ever

But but Action Masters



I am going to throw an idea out I was thinking about last night as to why the Diaclone stuff specifically was considered better than later years.

They came with cockpits.

I am not saying pilots made them better. But the need to leave space for a pilot meant a certain amount of size and price point that demanded creativity and fancy features like spring loaded weapons (or even weapons at all) and rubber tires. A lot of those features disappeared as scale dropped, first with Devastator and later the scramble city combiners.