SPOILER THREAD: SW: The Force Awakens

[gamblor916]

I thought Star Killer base was the dumbest part of the movie, it would of been a better movie without it. I would be happy if it was just a base, but without the ridiculous super weapon.

I agree with this. Also we never got to see the new walkers in action, just blurry background filler.

[GoktimusPrime]

To be fair, if I were a kid, I would think that Starkiller Base was freakin' awesome.
There are a lot of things in Star Wars that I've grown up with thinking that are cool (and still do think are cool ) despite later realising that it doesn't make a lick of sense.

• Hyperspace. While the idea of wormholes and spacefolding are theoretically/arguably possible (Einstein was the first to propose the curved nature of space), the idea of being able to travel at super-light speed is really more of a plot device than scientific plausibility.

• Lightsabres. Cavelos explains how lightsabres could be built with our existing technology, and while it is possible, the "handle" would be the size of a factory. One problem that canon has never explained is how to maintain a static blade tip. Also, the shape and nature of Kylo Ren's blade arguably disproves the notion that lightsabre blades are made from plasma or something like plasma. Also, as Kevin Smith once said, the emanating heat from a lightsabre would likely give you an instant sunburn.

• Jetpacks. Again, as Smith said, they would, "Burn your (donkey) off."

• The Force. Let's face it, it's magic. And when the Prequels tried to provide a scientific explanation for it, fans got mad and demanded that it be magic. Earlier today my daughter asked me if lightsabres really can beat guns, and I told her only if the person using the lightsabre has special Force powers. And this is canonically true -- any regular person who tries to use a lightsabre to deflect a blaster shot will just get shot like in real life!

Star Wars is really just a space opera rather than science fiction.

[Lint]

I thought Star Killer base was the dumbest part of the movie, it would of been a better movie without it. I would be happy if it was just a base, but without the ridiculous super weapon.

Yep, it should have been left as the doomsday device for the final movie in this presumed trilogy (which would have been a nice throwback to the climax of the original film). Now to one-up the threat level in future they're going to have to go full retard: like a weapon that can destroy the entire galaxy in a single shot.

Definitely a more enjoyable movie than the prequels (and even some of the original trilogy films IMO). Found the pacing to be particularly good, especially when compared to the dialogue heavy scene to dialogue heavy scene to pointless CGI battle scene prequels.

[drifand]

I am with goki here, I think a lot of people try to think too hard and make sense out of every flaw is where you are not going to enjoy the movie to someone sitting back and relax.

I mean you don't need to be a Jedi to spot the evil base that big. I be very concerned if my sun is being played around with someone.

I can totally forgot 1,2,3 ever happened when I watch this movie and that's what made it enjoyable.

[GoktimusPrime]

Definitely a more enjoyable movie than the prequels (and even some of the original trilogy films IMO). Found the pacing to be particularly good, especially when compared to the dialogue heavy scene to dialogue heavy scene to pointless CGI battle scene prequels.

IMO the Prequels were a poor execution of a good concept, and Force Awakens has been a good execution of a pretty ordinary concept (i.e. mostly rehashing A New Hope).

While the Prequels did certainly have their share of flaws, they were - IMHO - fundamentally sound. Because those movies did fulfill the following:

• Showed us the origins of Anakin Skywalker, including his gradual journey from being an innocent and good person towards his ultimate fall from grace into villainy. And of course, Anakin's romance with Padmé, culminating in the birth of the twins.

• The Jedi in their prime. The Prequels gave us an unsurpassed amount of lightsabre action. As griffin pointed out before, the Original Trilogy was set after the fall of the Jedi; so all we saw were old men, a cyborg and a quasi-trained boy.

• The Clone Wars! Something that we've been itching to see ever since the 1977 film where Luke asked Ben, "You fought in the Clone Wars?!" and nothing more was ever said about it.

• The transformation of the Republic into the Empire.

Of course, one of the core problems with the Prequels was that the stories themselves were more driven by these events rather than being character driven. The Prequels spent more time world-building which left less time for character-development. We didn't really need to see so much world-building, such as all those boring Senate sessions (seriously, who wants to watch a galactic version of Question Time?), the Pod Race (they only really need to show ONE lap), the Kaminoan cloning facility, the Geonosian droid foundry etc. While they were all cool things to see, they ultimately weren't that pivotal to the plot per se. They could've been made much shorter or just mentioned in passing. Then Lucas would've had more time to intensely focus on characters like Anakin Skywalker etc.

To me, The Force Awakens feel like the complete opposite of this. The general story is pretty much a retelling of A New Hope, but the story is reasonably well driven by its two protagonists -- Finn, the man who's desperate to flee his past, and Rey, the girl who's desperate to run back to her past. Both characters go on a personal journey and they grow and become different people by the end of the film. Finn learns to stop running away and become a selfless hero (similar to Han Solo's journey in A New Hope, actually), and Rey learns to living in the past and embrace her future.

Hopefully the future Sequels will give us a good combination of having a good character-driven plot, which is what the Original Trilogy gave us (hence why it's regarded as the best by fans). Bear in mind that Abrams is not directing Episodes VIII and IX, I think that we may have a new hope for this franchise to strike back and deliver a return of the story-telling standard that we loved from the OT.

[drifand]

Gee if Abrams not doing the later ones, it may fall back again.

[Magnus]

Of course, one of the core problems with the Prequels was that the stories themselves were more driven by these events rather than being character driven. The Prequels spent more time world-building which left less time for character-development. We didn't really need to see so much world-building, such as all those boring Senate sessions (seriously, who wants to watch a galactic version of Question Time?), the Pod Race (they only really need to show ONE lap), the Kaminoan cloning facility, the Geonosian droid foundry etc. While they were all cool things to see, they ultimately weren't that pivotal to the plot per se. They could've been made much shorter or just mentioned in passing. Then Lucas would've had more time to intensely focus on characters like Anakin Skywalker etc.

To me, The Force Awakens feel like the complete opposite of this. The general story is pretty much a retelling of A New Hope, but the story is reasonably well driven by its two protagonists -- Finn, the man who's desperate to flee his past, and Rey, the girl who's desperate to run back to her past. Both characters go on a personal journey and they grow and become different people by the end of the film. Finn learns to stop running away and become a selfless hero (similar to Han Solo's journey in A New Hope, actually), and Rey learns to living in the past and embrace her future.

I would say that what you've described is actually TFA's biggest weakness - it doesn't give us the entire context for what's happening. There seems to be a massive gap in information/exposition delivered on-screen, as if there's required reading/assumed knowledge, but we don't have that knowledge. Yeah, the First Order is descended from the remnants of the Empire, but if the Empire is defeated, why is there a resistance? What's the go with the New Republic, and aren't they fighting the First Order?

Episodes IV and I actually worked in that there was no backstory needed to understand what was going on - the opening crawls for those two movies told us what we needed to know with regards to backstory and context, whereas Episode VII's doesn't.

[GoktimusPrime]

I personally see it as more of a strength. I think that in the limited time that you have to tell a story that it's not always necessary to overly delve into world-building expositions. I think that it's fine to allow audiences to fill in the gaps. This is what the Original Trilogy did, and I think that it worked in its favour because it gave those films more time to cut to the chase and focus on the characters; to tell the story about what's happening right now rather than what's happened before.

In the OT we know virtually nothing about the Clone Wars, other than the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought together in it. That's it. But as far as experiencing the story of the OT is concerned, that's really all you need to know. Knowing that Boba Fett is a clone and a product of the Clone Wars really isn't essential to one's experience of the OT. We know nothing of Anakin's origins; just that he was Obi-Wan's student who turned to evil and that he's the father of Luke and Leia. But again, that's all you really need to know. Don't get me wrong, I do like world building, and the knowledge garnered from the Prequels helps to embellish the Original Trilogy, but that's basically what they are -- an embellishment. But not an absolute necessity, as far as the core story of the OT is concerned.

If I may make a comparison with Transformers; look at Beast Wars. Although Beast Wars is set in the same continuity family as G1, it stands alone enough that you don't absolutely need to know G1 canon to watch and appreciate Beast Wars. Yes, G1 canonical knowledge does certainly enhance one's enjoyment of Beast Wars, but BW is perfectly enjoyable to an audience who knows nothing about G1. This is because while BW often referenced G1, it didn't stop to weigh itself down by delving deeply into G1 itself. This is what the Original Star Wars Trilogy did -- it referenced the Prequels, but didn't delve into it. The Prequels very much delved into itself, which was fine in many parts, but it became cumbersome in others. As mentioned before, the Pod Race is a prime example of this.

So I think that TFA also does well in simply making quick references to the events that have occurred between RotJ and TFA without bogging itself down by pausing for exposition. The movie provides almost all of the basic information that we need to know, such as:
* Luke did indeed create a new Jedi Order, as instructed by Yoda.
* Ben Solo/Kylo Ren was one of his students who was seduced by the Dark Side and helped to destroy the Jedi.
* Kylo Ren was a member of some order (as seen in Rey's image)
* Ben's fall caused his family to fall apart, as well as forcing his Uncle Luke into exile.
* The Imperial Remnant^First Order has risen from the ashes of the Empire. They are apparently under the rule of a Sith with an adorably cute and cuddly name. Awww... Snokey!

The only real loose end from the film is Rey. But it's obviously deliberate because they're building for the upcoming sequels.

Would it be cool if official canon helped to fill in the gaps? Absolutely. But the Force Awakens movie itself doesn't necessarily have to do this. Isn't Disney going to make some spin-off movies? Cos if so, those films could easily fill in these gaps.

[kup]

I need to see it again but like several of the sentiments here, I did very much enjoy it. Most of my enjoyment probably came from the feel of this movie which has returned to that of the original trilogy - It feels like Star Wars again

This movie is by no means without its critical flaws and a lot of them atributed to how JJ Abrahams makes films, specially in the rehashes of previous plotlines for fan service. We didn't need a third Death star battle and as a result, that was probably the weakest part of the film. Although more subtle than JJ's other tribute work, we also got what is essentially a retelling of the A New Hope storyline but with a sufficiently new take to make it seem fresh but more directly atributed to the new characters. That part of the movie was what made this film work as the Star Killer bit was kind of 'been there, done that' and lacked emotial intensity.

It was also good to see a return to practical effects and scenery rather than a complete dependence on CGI like the prequels. However JJ decided to still use CGI characters like Snook and Maz Kanata (who was kind of a lady Yoda) which they simply don't blend in with the world and look too 'CGI' like the prequels. I hope this gets recitified in future films as they stood out as CGI too blatantly but largely due to how well done all the practical effects were - Kind of shows how CGI can't beat the artistry of practical effects.

In short, I like this movie because it feels like the original Star Wars. It introduces interesting new main characters while still having the old ones around. There is still an air of mystery about it which allows us to wonder and speculate about and the fact that we are discussing it, means that the movie has grabbed us enough to care.

This movie distances itself from the abhorrent prequel trilogy brings us back to how Star Wars should be. The next best thing now would be to delegate the Prequel trilogy as an 'alternate universe' and perhaps give us a decent origin to Darth Vader and the clone Wars

Regarding Luke, I think he did set out to find the temple but was probably marooned on the planet by Kylo Ren. That is probably why he was out of contact for so long.

[Paulbot]

I saw the film again this morning, and enjoyed it more the second time. The first time all the remake bits kept standing out, but this time I knew exactly what to expect and could just enjoy a really good Star Wars movie.

There were a couple of things I noticed on a second viewing. For example you can see the Falcon as soon as they run into the junkyard once you know it's there. And I think I missed the first time that it was a single X-Wing (Poe's) tearing through the TIEs in the "Damn good pilot" moment which made it actually a really great demostration.

The size of the First Order is implied from a line by Maz, and it's definitely larger than what we see in the film. Starkiller base was fully charged and in sunlight, so it presumably was in a binary system. The line about it being an "hyper lightspeed weapon" still doesn't make it too clear how it works.

I was also looking closely at the interactions between Finn and Poe, and while it can be read in to, I actually found that Finn and Rae had more potential relationship potential on rewatch.

In the aftermath of the bar I was thinking how good it was to see a battle taking place in the real world. Like Kup said, the prequels ended up with too much CGI and it was used for too many environments. Real set and real world locations make a big difference.

One other thought I had at the beginning was it would have been interesting if when the opening scroll started it had said "Episode X: The Force Awakens"! How many people would have noticed? Just like A New Hope having an "Episode IV", the suggestion of multiple untold stories would have been cool.