SPOILER THREAD: SW: The Force Awakens

[GoktimusPrime]

Just read an interesting article regarding The Force Awakens, which unfortunately isn't appropriate to share due to the frequent use coarse language. Nonetheless, the author does make a few good points.

This is in regard to the final lightsabre battle between Kylo Ren, Finn and Rey. One criticism that this scene has received was how Ren was "easily" beaten by two novices. Consider the following:

• They were fighting a severely messed up Kylo Ren
  Chewbacca's bowcaster is significantly powered up in this film. Clearly Chewie has upgraded his weapon quite a bit during the intervening 30 years between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. We see single shots from this weapon sending Stormtroopers flying some 6m through the air! This weapon deals some serious damage. After killing Han Solo, Chewbacca shoots Kylo Ren with his bowcaster and scores a hit. Kylo Ren takes a tumble, but he gets up and walks away, despite having been shot by a weapon that could flip a Jeep! Then, without any medical treatment, Ren goes out in the freezing cold and fights Rey and Finn. So really, Rey and Finn were fighting a severely wounded Kylo Ren. The guy needed to be in a Bacta tank, not in a lightsabre fight!

• Finn and Rey aren't non-combatants. Okay, neither have been trained in lightsabre combat, but they aren't novices to melee combat either. Finn, legally known as FN-2187, is a professionally trained soldier. And we know that First Order Stormtroopers are also trained in melee combat, as demonstrated by the vibro-weapon wielding Stormtrooper who fights the lightsabre wielding Finn. Rey's teacher in the combat arts has been her life experience. Growing up on the hostile world of Jakku since a child and having to survive as a scavenger, Rey had to learn how to look after herself. So Rey basically developed her martial arts skills in the same way that martial arts were created in real life in the ancient world and in the same way that evolution works -- she didn't get killed! (re: survival of the fittest) If Rey wasn't a naturally talented survivor, she probably would've died in childhood. She didn't have adoptive parents or an uncle and aunt to raise her. We see her successfully fighting off multiple opponents in hand-to-hand combat. Finn ran to her rescue, but by the time he got there the rescue wasn't needed. Then Rey chased him and beat him down. Han Solo even acknowledge that she can fight. Mix in her heightened Force sensitivity, and you have one naturally potent fighter (Luke and Leia on the other hand were raised in environments that never allowed them to develop melee fighting skills; Luke as a farmer, Leia as a statesman).

If you take the world's best boxer or martial arts fighter, shoot him in the stomach with a high power rifle, then put him in a cage fight with a person who's had Army training and another person who grew up in a violent slum in a third world country, then yeah, the odds of that "ultimate fighter" being able to win the fight suddenly goes down.

P.S.: There is still another criticism of that fight which I must admit that I find ridiculous and cannot justify, and that is a really long pause where Rey closes her eyes and begins meditating before defeating Ren. Really. As if Ren is just going to idly stand there while she summons the power of the Force to beat him. Sure, Vader did a lot of this when he fought Luke in The Empire Strikes Back, but that was because he was toying with Luke. It was never his intention to kill Luke, he wanted to recruit his son. Ren has no such objective! The dude had just killed his own father, there's no apparent reason as to why he wouldn't kill Rey. And even if there were, he could still easily have beaten her without killing her, like chopping off her legs or something. She was just standing there with her eyes closed! (gah... this is why I can't stand to watch martial arts competitions...)

[Paulbot]

And even if there were, he could still easily have beaten her without killing her, like chopping off her legs or something. She was just standing there with her eyes closed!

Was she? Just standing there at some point? Do you mean the bit where Ren had his light sabre almost at her throat and she was holding it back with hers, and then Ren got a bit concerned by how strong she was quickly becoming with the force, and Rey closed her eyes until the moment letting the force flow through and she became attuned enough to push him off and get the upper hand?


(It's also a dramatic movie moment of the hero's comeback. How long did Galvatron have his hands around Hot Rod's throat before the Autobot got his hands on the Matrix? Enough time to cut away to a whole other scene! )

[Sinnertwin]

I kinda think that people don't want Kylo sucking any more than he already does, to the point where they're dissecting his suckage and looking for explanations to losing out to two half noobs.

Remember, Rey can do anything. No formal training required. I'm surprised she didn't move Starkiller Base into another system by just closing her eyes and thinking happy thoughts

[GoktimusPrime]

Was she? Just standing there at some point? Do you mean the bit where Ren had his light sabre almost at her throat and she was holding it back with hers, and then Ren got a bit concerned by how strong she was quickly becoming with the force, and Rey closed her eyes until the moment letting the force flow through and she became attuned enough to push him off and get the upper hand?

Yes! That's the one. It didn't bother me as much when I watched it the first time, but it did during my second viewing when it was much more noticeable. Yes, I understand that it creates a lot of cool dramatic tension, but it could've been done in a more practical manner.

For example...

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul
Kenobi was precariously dangling off a ledge while Maul was toying with him. Kenobi momentarily focuses and draws on the power of the Force. There is a dramatic pause which is also reflected in the music. We also see Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsabre twitching. Kenobi then suddenly performs an acrobatic flip while summoning Jinn's sabre, then landing and killing a surprised Maul.

Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader
Luke chops off Vader's hand as the fight reaches its climax - also reflected in the music and the sound of Vader screaming. The scene then slows down and pauses as Luke looks upon a now pathetically defeated and weakened Vader who is at his mercy. The Emperor goads Luke into killing Vader. There is incredible tension and suspense in this scene as Luke goes through an internal battle... we see Luke calm down and focus as he stares at his own robotic hand. After his brief moment of reflection, Luke stands triumphant and throws his lightsabre away, refusing to execute a defeated opponent. Luke then morally defeats the Emperor by telling him, "You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku
Similar to Luke's dilemma, only that Anakin makes the opposite decision and executes. Much like Vader, Dooku was incapable of fighting back. The fight was already finished by this stage.

All of these scenes involve the protagonists pausing to reflect or meditate in order to deal with their fear. In Obi-Wan and Luke's cases, they chose to manage/contain their fear by becoming more calm and focused. In Anakin's case, he gave into his fear, killing Dooku in an act of rage and vengeance. Rey is faced with similar dilemmas in The Force Awakens. We see her initially fail at using the Jedi Mind Trick because she was terrified. After she managed to calm herself and manage her fear, she was then able to successfully pull off the Jedi Mind Trick. And it was fine for this scene to take its time because the Stormtrooper wasn't there to kill her, he was just there to prevent her from escaping. Sure, time was of the essence as Ren was approaching, but not quite as imminent as being in the middle of a melee fight. This scene already shows the audience how the Light side of the Force works, so I don't think it was necessary to redo the same exposition at full length when Rey countered Ren. Simply show Rey taking a deep breath as the music plays Luke's theme -- maintain eye contact. Have her facial expression quickly change from fear to calm determination; same as what Obi-Wan and Luke did. Even Hayden Christensen did the same thing, only in reverse... and if Christensen can do it, any actor/actress can.

Or...
...if you would rather that moment be drawn out, then create some physical distance between the characters. This is what happened with Kenobi and Maul. Lucas wanted to draw out some tension in this scene, so he had Kenobi dangling off the wall of a pit while Maul stood seemingly triumphant at the ledge. They're already fighting outdoors, so it'd be easy enough to put some space between these characters. For example, you might have Ren walk towards a frightened Rey menacingly as she closes her eyes and taps into the power of the Light side, then lifting her lightsabre up and blocking Ren's lethal blow at the last second and then turning the tide against him.

I think that either option would work better than just having the two of them standing there locked together like they're in an awkward school dance. This is the sort of thing that often plagues Japanese anime and tokusatsu series ("Power Rangers") -- where the protagonist(s) need to pause and have a dramatic power up while the antagonist twiddles their thumbs. There's an anime called Martian Successor Nadesico which wonderfully parodies a lot of anime and scifi clichés, and in one episode one of the mecha pilots tells his partner that their robots need to combine. The partner is about to engage the combination sequence, but the first guy says that they have to do it in a dramatically heroic fashion by loudly yelling the name of the their transformation. So they try it, but the partner (who just doesn't care about this) isn't saying it dramatically enough, so they pause and the first guy tells him that he's gotta put more heart into it. So they try again, and an enemy combatant blows up the first robot, killing the dramatic pilot! The second pilot survives, but then suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder.

Remember, Rey can do anything.

She can't make Jar Jar Binks not suck.

[Sinnertwin]

I've always thought that the duel at the end of ROTJ was the weakest -not counting Episode 7's baseball slug shots

Watch it again. Luke and Vader are merrily swinging away when Vader decides to stop and sit down, allowing Luke to slice his hand off. That choreography could have used something more

[Megatran]

Remember, Rey can do anything. No formal training required. I'm surprised she didn't move Starkiller Base into another system by just closing her eyes and thinking happy thoughts

And tapping her heels three times.

[Lint]

IMO the Prequels were a poor execution of a good concept, and Force Awakens has been a good execution of a pretty ordinary concept (i.e. mostly rehashing A New Hope).

While the Prequels did certainly have their share of flaws, they were - IMHO - fundamentally sound. Because those movies did fulfill the following:

• Showed us the origins of Anakin Skywalker, including his gradual journey from being an innocent and good person towards his ultimate fall from grace into villainy. And of course, Anakin's romance with Padmé, culminating in the birth of the twins.

• The Jedi in their prime. The Prequels gave us an unsurpassed amount of lightsabre action. As griffin pointed out before, the Original Trilogy was set after the fall of the Jedi; so all we saw were old men, a cyborg and a quasi-trained boy.

• The Clone Wars! Something that we've been itching to see ever since the 1977 film where Luke asked Ben, "You fought in the Clone Wars?!" and nothing more was ever said about it.

• The transformation of the Republic into the Empire.

I agree, good story, woefully poor execution. I'm watching the Clone Wars series on Netflix right now and it fulfills all but (presumably) the last of the points you mentioned above. In fact if you had never seen the prequel films previously they would appear like some kind of live action homebrew some fanboy has cooked up on youtube based off the Clone Wars series.

To me, The Force Awakens feel like the complete opposite of this. The general story is pretty much a retelling of A New Hope, but the story is reasonably well driven by its two protagonists -- Finn, the man who's desperate to flee his past, and Rey, the girl who's desperate to run back to her past. Both characters go on a personal journey and they grow and become different people by the end of the film. Finn learns to stop running away and become a selfless hero (similar to Han Solo's journey in A New Hope, actually), and Rey learns to living in the past and embrace her future.

Hopefully the future Sequels will give us a good combination of having a good character-driven plot, which is what the Original Trilogy gave us (hence why it's regarded as the best by fans). Bear in mind that Abrams is not directing Episodes VIII and IX, I think that we may have a new hope for this franchise to strike back and deliver a return of the story-telling standard that we loved from the OT.

I suspect JJ Abrams was either given or chose to follow the same sort of mandate he got for Star Trek: have enough nods to the old stuff to hook the fans in but establish a new and clear enough playground for the franchise to grow into. While I would have liked to have more of the new trilogy based off EU (now branded Legends) material I think we have to accept that while a lot of it was absolutely brilliant, theres a lot of crap that simply would not work and we'd almost certainly recieve something that violates previous canon AND doesn't live up to expectations.

I hope the future creators and Disney make the most of the fresh start.

[GoktimusPrime]

As a nerd, I really really really wanted the sequels to follow the EU. I was looking forward to pointing out the correct pronunciation of "Xizor" ("shee-zor," not "zick-zor"). But alas, this will probably never come to pass. Also, even if it did, there is a chance that actors may still mispronounce the name, unless Peter Jackson were directing (a lot of people refused to believe me when I said that Smaug is pronounced as "smOWg" and not "smorg"). Whatever. Don't even start me on the way that a lot of people mispronounce "Yuuzhan Vong." What do you mean that these are fictitious languages and it doesn't matter?!? #itsleviosanotleviosa

*ahem* But yes, I would like to see the dismissal of the EU as means for the sequel writers to have the freedom to take the next movies to new directions rather than redirecting it along the same parallels as the Original Trilogy.

[Deonasis]

I saw it a few weeks ago but haven't been near a keyboard to type so here are my thoughts for a long time ago..

- I hope that Rey is no relation of Luke's or any other established family. Keeping it all in the family is what the The Bold and Beautiful is for. I hope there is no ultra super special family in SW.

- I doubt a bigger-er Star weapon would suit any more movies so I wouldn't mind the Sith go to hunt down Rey's family in the next movie - it is a proven way to disrupt a young Jedi's training. Just like the Star-gun was a new take on an old formula I think a "chase for Rey's family" movie could be a new take on another familiar SW event.

- The defection of Finn was strange. Could the ex-stormtrooper split out hero group if the Rebels start to suspect the Empire has (by a series of strange events) actually planted him? I mean his behaviour was so different from other Stormtroopers that I am surprised that such malfunction was not noticed before this seemingly sudden and extreme battlefield meltdown.

- The safe return of Poe was strange. This is an area where I think the Sith may have pulled strings. Finn could make a great red-stormtrooper-herring whilst it is Poe that is being used. Now I know that Poe pretty much destroyed the Planet-gun but for the Sith to find the last Jedi? I think they would be so ruthless.

- At the time I thought Ren was punching his side to inflate/deflate a punctured lung which would've showcased how darn hard it is to kill a force user AND leave him in a much weakened state for the beginners to battle him. Looking back now I think he was just getting amped off the pain, shame.

- I don't know the back story but Phasma should survive (like they nearly all do) and kick arse in the next movie.

- BB8 worked better than expected.

- Loved Ren's tantrums. It was the best way to showcase his emotional state and immature Sith training.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

SAw a few days ago and my thoughts will follow.

Nice visuals, Han Solo and Chewie were cool, but the rest was fairly ho-hum. This was the original Star Wars movie with a "search for....." thrown in for good measure. I've already seen the story of the death star. Twice. It seems ludicrous to think anyone would think that type of weapon is good idea... surely.

The names were stupid. Snoke or whatever doesn't sound intimidating, but then neither did Count Dooku. It's fairly unlikely that Snoke is a fully trained Sith lord isn't it? What with the eliteness of the Jedi and sith bizzo.

Had a hard time liking the characters as well. Finn came off as incompeteant. Rey, kind of unlikeable. Ren was the most interesting for me, as you can tell the commander of the star killer base thing thought he was weak and shouldn't be in the position he's in. I did think Ren was way too emo and when he took off his mask, any threat level he had disappeared. I really hope he is developed more than just becoming a serious bad-ass sith lord.

I think most of all, I found it disappointing as the movie felt more like a re-hash than anything else. Surely with a decent director on board we'd be getting something good. Oh no. Lets just go for the original again.
Needs more Mark Hamil. Oh and that last scene, waaaay tooooo looooong!

2.5 out of 5.

Wasn't bad, wasn't good either. A perfectly safe movie.