SPOILER THREAD: SW: The Force Awakens

[Omega Metro]

I'm hoping to see more of General Hux in the next movie. As well as Phasma (she is in the the next movie according to Wikipedia so has not died). Hux seems to have a lot of hatred in him....which I like.

[Meister]

...also I never understand why it sometimes seems liking something and criticising it are mutually exclusive.

Exactly, I am a fan of cinema, I enjoy watching movies, all kinds of movies, I've been doing it for a while now, and if I wanted to, I'm pretty sure I could rip any movie to shreds, including my favorites, but thats not my primary intention, its not the reason why I like watching movies, to be honest originality in storyline has been a rare thing for a very long time in my opinion, so I think expecting that in everything that is churned out is a bit masochistic in a way, because the majority of the time you will be disappointed (if not always), so what I have come to enjoy most, and appreciate most, is the story telling, the way the story is told, the way visuals are used, the way sound is used, the way a director, actors, etc can put across emotion and make you personally invested and emotionally experience their art within the context that its meant to be taken. So yeah when I make comments about movies, its not intended to take the good things away from it which I like, there is good and bad in everything, and in the end individual opinion is subjective, thats why I treat these conversations as discussion (chit chat), not debate (arguing right and wrong). I've been waiting 30 years for this movie, I'm excited about it, I want to talk about it in an open/honest/fun way and I want to hear other peoples thoughts who share a similar connection to the film/franchise as well, that's all, I respect all views irrespective if I personally agree with them or not

I also think that Star Killer base was one of the weakest plot elements, it follows the ABC's of Hollywood movie threats, just do the same thing but make it bigger with more lasers. it's just like the antagonist star ship in Star Trek into Darkness. Star Killer base is also not sold as being that big a threat even if it more powerful than the Death Star. Throughout a New Hope we are told the Death Star is the ultimate force in the galaxy, and then when Alderan is destroyed we get Leia's emotional response, and sense of loss (even if brief). When Star Killer base wipes out a whole system there is a fancy CGI explodey scene and then nothing, no one seems to bat an eyelid that an entire system was destroyed, there's no millions of voices cried out moment, no one seemed to care, and the story moves on so fast that the viewer doesn't care either, I'm not even sure what planet(s) they destroyed.

Consequently I found Star Killer base to be nothing but a plot device to allow a set piece X-wing battle that mirrors the original film, and unlike the original I was not invested in this battle at all, we all knew exactly what was going to happen there, and the human drama on the ground was so much more exciting. Mind you saying that about a Star Wars film is a very good thing, and as I said I really enjoyed the film. But I do think you could take Star Killer base wholly out of the film and it works the same, it might even work better.

Can't say I have much to disagree with there. Its hard to feel any kind of connection when you don't even know who the hell got blown up, or why. Off the top of my head (and I ain't no script writer) I could think of two alternate avenues they could have pursued then going with another exact copy of a Death Star (but way bigger). The first would be like I mentioned before, just have it destroy the sun (a bigger threat than the original death star cause it essentially makes the inhabitants of entire system refugees), the resistance finds out they turned it on which puts into jeopardy 4 planets faithful to the republic (and countless others in that system), they have to race to stop the machine before it completely kills the sun, perhaps destroying it to reverse the process (sure its still similar to the death star but not exactly the same and also can be viewed as a natural progression from just blowing up individual planets with a giant laser). The other would be forgetting the starkiller base all together and go with something along the lines of the first order, being the fascists that they are, have been taking the children of all the planets they conquer to turn them into storm troopers for their army. With Finn siding with the resistance, he tells them where the main base is where they take all the children to for mind wiping and training (which is where Kylo has taken Rey) and the resistance make a plan to attack the base to rescue the stolen children and blow it up. Again nothing spectacular and hardly anything original by any means but could have facilitated the purpose of the final act without going over the exact same ground again within the Star wars theatrical story line, but death star 3 was the safest option, and in the end it served its purpose, like you said, the conflict on the ground is what stole the show, and in saying that, the light saber fight between Kylo, Finn and Rey was pretty awesome, I loved it

[drifand]

The last battle rey and ren IMO is the weakest point in the movie.
As much as I know ren was injured by chewie his force was rather weak in not able to retrieve a light saber. I mean did you saw how he stopped a laser beam in the start of the movie? Hence this is the weakest part.

As for rey, too many questions, rather not put judgement on what I think.

Poe should be related to wadge I believe? The flying skills are similar.

[Meister]

As for the actors I cannot praise Daisy Ridley enough. She was perfect. The true hero of The film and the strongest female action hero is donkey's years. Can't wait to see all the girls in her costume instead of frozen (whose female characters were also strong). She really sold me into the movie (along with John Boyega's Finn). They were both fantastic to watch and had a true chemistry not seen in any of the previous six films. On the flip side, I kind of wish they had kept Solo Alice and killed off Leia, only because Carrie Fisher still cannot act and seemed bored and unsure of what she was doing whenever she was on screen. The less we see of her in the next two films the better.

Yep I agree with this too (in respect of Daisy Ridley), she stole the show, she made her character a thousand times more relatable and convincing then Hayden ever did, a great performance in deed.

Also as much as I loved watching Harrison Ford in this and wished he was in the next two, I don't think killing off anyone else would of gotten anywhere near the same impact as losing Han Solo, especially at the hands of his own son!, it was the obvious decision (not to mention the most commonly predicted)

[Meister]

As for Kylo Ren's fits of rage, I think that this is typical of a Sith. Kylo destroys property when he gets angry, Vader killed his own men! Obviously killing people is worse than destroying property, but this could be due to Ren still being far more conflicted than Vader. Snoke may have thought that partaking in the murder of innocents might have turned Ren further to the Dark Side, since it apparently worked with Anakin Skywalker. But it didn't; Ren was still conflicted and could still feel the Light Side calling to him. So Ren had to take it up a notch and deliberately kill his own father in cold blood to bring about his final conversion to the Dark Side. This harks back to when Palpatine told Vader that he had killed Padmé in his rage; true or not, Vader believed it and it strengthened his conviction to the Dark Side. But Leia believes that there still is good in Ren, just as Luke believed that Vader hadn't fully fallen the Dark Side too. And he was right. I hope that Leia's intuition proves true too and Ren becomes Ben again, returning to the Light Side. I just hope that Ben doesn't have to die in the process as Anakin did, cos... that's already done.

I reckon Kylo Ren is the most interesting of the new characters, much like everyone else, I really like the direction they went with him (loved the tantrum scenes). He sort of reminds me of Commodus (the character Joaquin Phoenix played in Gladiator), a mentally weak/emotionally unstable villain. That personality stemmed from feelings of paternal rejection and abandonment, and I think they may be going a similar route with Ren. To be honest I didn't get the impression that he was a Sith, nor even a Jedi (light or dark), obviously he has a strong connection with the force, however he seemed like more of an amateur in the arts of combat etc. In this respect, I find myself speculating that Kylo was being prepared or expected to be Luke's successor since a child (giving him big shoes to fill), however before all his training could be completed (perhaps only half way), Luke's attention went elsewhere or he stopped training due to other more important issues which either demoted Kylo from that position or left him without a purpose, without direction. In steps Snoke (assuming he is a Sith) who offers him direction again (for his own sinister intentions) and we see him trying to fulfill his destiny, becoming what he was always promised or brought up to be, although in a corrupted sense.

As for his real name, I agree that it would make more logical sense for Luke to name any son he had Ben, so I totally understand why people would be irked by that decision. However, in terms of connection, if we want to get really sentimental here, it could be said that if it wasn't for Obi-wan, Han and Leia would have never met

[philby]

hmm i dunno how it works now exactly but imo using the dark side ofvthe force does not automatically = being a sith. i can't remember now where i read it but im sure it was mentioned specifically that kylo is not affiliated with any sith but instead the knights of ren which while focussing on the dark side are something different. some people have complained that it was too easy for kylo to be defeated since he is a sith lord trained all his life but i disagree. also, to me it seemed like there was a possibility from the way leia talked about him that maybe he hasnt even been trained by luke for that long so he might not be as powerful as some have assumed.

i loved rey but it did seem like she was perhaps almost too strong in the force for her level. we know she can fight and she's heard myths and stories of luke and the jedi so maybe she heard about the mind tricks and pulling objects, or maybe it was her instincts and the force is just that strong with her? when she tells kylo he is afraid of not living up to vader i really liked that scene. it made me think of that issue of MTMTE where Chromedome interrogates Overlord but he turned it around on him

i loved the effects but i wish they were able to use models for the ship battles, theres just something about them that sticks out as being cg to me. similarly with snoke, i dont think he looked that good even as being a hologram.

[GoktimusPrime]

Maybe "Ben" is just a common name for humans in the Star Wars universe, and any relationship to Obi-Wan's alias is coincidental. We have many common given names on Earth -- statistically the most common being Mohammed. Why can't the same hold true for the Star Wars universe? Maybe Ben means something different in Huttese and Corellian or Alderaanian, but just coincidentally sounds the same (just as 'Ken' can be an Anglophone or Japanese name).

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Interesting to see how the First Order seems to maintain a more 'racist' policy, as all of them are human (just as with the Empire), whereas the Resistance, like the Rebellion, are a diverse mix of humans and non-humans. I wonder where this policy came from in the Empire, and it may not have even come from the Emperor. Palpatine himself didn't seem to discriminate against non-humans, as he surrounded himself with non-human aides (e.g. Mas Amedda etc.) when he was Supreme Chancellor. And of course, Darth Plagueis and Darth Maul were also non-humans. One theory I've heard is that while Palpy himself doesn't discriminate against non-humans, someone else with power in the Empire did, and passed a law that only allowed humans to serve the Empire. Palpatine may have approved, since he's not one to discourage hate and anger.

Also cool to see a greater range of diversity (both in terms of ethnicity and gender) among humans in both the First Order and the Resistance.

[Meister]

Snoke could have been a secret apprentice, trained by Vader or Palpatine to removed the other.

Palpatine had seen Vader as a failure, disappointed that he had been reduced to a cyborg on life-support. He had such potential, and now Vader was limited by his . He was plotting to replace him as soon as he found out about Luke. Before he found out about Luke it would seem logical he had an eye out for someone else. Snoke could have been who he was training up.

That being said, Palpatine also had other force wielding operatives (like the Inquisitors seen in Rebels). Snoke could have been one of them that just made a grab for power in the power vacuum that would have followed Palpatine's death. He may have just declared himself Sith.

Snoke seems to be the big unknown factor here, who he is and where he came from is all a mystery for now. He could have been another Jedi, or perhaps one of Luke's own apprentices who turned, or perhaps not even a force user to begin with (although admittedly that would seem odd since he mentions he has to finish Kylo's training).

It has been suggested by some that he may be Darth Plaguies (Palpatines master, the one he talks about in Revenge of the Sith, the one who could stop people from dying and influence the Midichlorians to create life). I believe Palpatine was supposed to have killed him in his sleep, however people speculate that he may have survived or resurrected himself. I doubt they would go this way, but if they did, it does provide an opportunity to link the whole saga together and provide a more ominous villain then Palpatine (if you thought the emperor was bad and powerful, wait until you see his master lol). Hell if they want they could even go and say that Darth Plaguies was also Master Sifo Dyas, the dude who commissioned the clone army and mysteriously died 10 years before the clone wars (perhaps thats when Palpatine put the knife to him), and possibly even further by saying that he was the one who created Anakin (influencing those Midichlorians) who as a result was always destined to replace Palpatine as his apprentice, which is the reason Palpatine put the knife to him to take Anakin for himself before Plaguies did him over. This would make the entire Star Wars story/saga the resulting product of one ominous figure's conception, a true puppet master who has now finally stepped out of the shadows and made himself known and consequently must be stopped by the only person who can, the son of his own creation, Luke Skywalker...

Apologies to all if I have accidentally shat all over the EU with that terrible brain fart of mine above, I've only followed the theatrical films so I'm only working with what I've been given, I would however be interested if anyone could provide some background on Plaguies or Sifo Dyas, I only recently found out that Plaguies was Palpatines master (never really said that in ROTS) and I have no idea who Sifo Dyas was supposed to be and I've always been intrigued why he went and commissioned the clone army.

[Golden Phoenix]

Snoke seems to be the big unknown factor here, who he is and where he came from is all a mystery for now. He could have been another Jedi, or perhaps one of Luke's own apprentices who turned, or perhaps not even a force user to begin with (although admittedly that would seem odd since he mentions he has to finish Kylo's training).

It has been suggested by some that he may be Darth Plaguies (Palpatines master, the one he talks about in Revenge of the Sith, the one who could stop people from dying and influence the Midichlorians to create life). I believe Palpatine was supposed to have killed him in his sleep, however people speculate that he may have survived or resurrected himself. I doubt they would go this way, but if they did, it does provide an opportunity to link the whole saga together and provide a more ominous villain then Palpatine (if you thought the emperor was bad and powerful, wait until you see his master lol). Hell if they want they could even go and say that Darth Plaguies was also Master Sifo Dyas, the dude who commissioned the clone army and mysteriously died 10 years before the clone wars (perhaps thats when Palpatine put the knife to him), and possibly even further by saying that he was the one who created Anakin (influencing those Midichlorians) who as a result was always destined to replace Palpatine as his apprentice, which is the reason Palpatine put the knife to him to take Anakin for himself before Plaguies did him over. This would make the entire Star Wars story/saga the resulting product of one ominous figure's conception, a true puppet master who has now finally stepped out of the shadows and made himself known and consequently must be stopped by the only person who can, the son of his own creation, Luke Skywalker...

Apologies to all if I have accidentally shat all over the EU with that terrible brain fart of mine above, I've only followed the theatrical films so I'm only working with what I've been given, I would however be interested if anyone could provide some background on Plaguies or Sifo Dyas, I only recently found out that Plaguies was Palpatines master (never really said that in ROTS) and I have no idea who Sifo Dyas was supposed to be and I've always been intrigued why he went and commissioned the clone army.

Courtesy of Wookieepedia - Just had to double check what was and wasn't cannon with this now

Sifo Dyas was a Jedi, was on the Council too. He had visions of a conflict and was kicked off the Jedi Council for suggesting making an army for the Republic. He found the Kaminoans and ordered the clone army. This was around the time of Episode I.
Palpatine found out about this and had Dooku (newly minted Sith Apprentice at this point) kill him off so they could take control of the army later. They then added their own requests into the clone army order (like Order 66).
This was expanded on in a book and a couple of episodes in the Clone Wars cartoon which is still considered cannon.

It used to be cannon that Plagueis' experiments resulted in Anakin's conception, and that he was still alive during the events of Episode I. His death occurred at about the same time as Maul's. Since the book this was in isn't cannon any more this isn't really fact now, but since he is known to be able to create life it is still possible he did help create Anakin.

Would be interesting if Snoke was Plagueis though. Would wonder why he would wait in the shadows for so long though. He would have been playing dead for some 50-60 years (depending on when he revealed himself). Maybe he did find a way to be immortal but it just took a long time to regenerate.

[GoktimusPrime]

Looks like Randall was wrong.