Morning all...

[STL]

Welcome!

[Vector Sigma 13]

Welcome, always good to see people from all walks on here. Does Ozformers need a Chaplain? Well it couldnt hurt any!

[dirge]

Well, we're not an army. I don't think we need someone on standby for last rites

Welcome.

[Me Grimlock!]

Hey - I am called Chaplain Ridley on WargamerAu and RPGMeetup. And don't think the last rites aren't necessary - I'm saddened and surprised by the number of tributes to departed members of TFW2005. Man, the kids of the 1980s are getting older. In my day...


As for the Grimlock as unbeliever reference from earlier - it was only in the US comics that he had that problem - there was no Primus in G1. But after the showdown in issue 75 with Unicron it wasn't Primus' existence that Grimlock doubted but his purpose for the TF race - "Creator think he make one race, he not - make two races that start calling themselves Autobot and Decepticon". Think it was the issue when he turned into an Action Master.

[GoktimusPrime]

As for the Grimlock as unbeliever reference from earlier - it was only in the US comics that he had that problem - there was no Primus in G1.

What?! Generation 1 is a term that was retrospectively created to describe Transformers before Transformers Generation 2. Transformers Generation 2 came into existence in 1993, thus everything Transformers created before the G2 brand in 1993 is Generation 1!

If you're saying that Primus didn't exist in G1 then where did he come from?? G2? That's certainly not the case. Also, Primus originated in the UK comics - although the US and UK comics are part of the same continuity (with some notable exceptions like the Earthforce Saga).

Primus, as he originally appeared in the UK G1 comics


Primus vs Unicron in a later appearance in the US G1 comics


Suggesting that the G1 comics are not G1 is just wrong. It was Marvel Comics who created the entire background mythos for Transformers in the beginning and the comics came out before the G1 cartoon and continued long after the cartoon ended (cartoon = 1985-87, comics = 1984-92). Marvel would publish the Generation 2 comics in 1993, but Primus already made an appearance well before then. In fact, Primus doesn't appear nor is mentioned in G2 - rather G2 focuses on the malevolent divine entity known as the Swarm (ultimately transformed by the Matrix into what would be the Vok as seen in Beast Wars).

But after the showdown in issue 75 with Unicron it wasn't Primus' existence that Grimlock doubted but his purpose for the TF race - "Creator think he make one race, he not - make two races that start calling themselves Autobot and Decepticon". Think it was the issue when he turned into an Action Master.

I think it's safe to say that Grimlock became a believer in Primus after Primus woke up and transported him (alongside Bumblebee, Jazz, Seawatch, Stakeout, Red Hot and Fixit to Earth). But it doesn't change the fact that Grimlock was an adamant non-believer and skeptic when the Autobots found Primus. He was the only one who refused to kneel before Primus and demanded the Keeper to prove his claim that Primus was the God of Transformers.

Grimlock came to believe in Primus after being presented with evidence, unlike the other Autobots who were willing to believe in Primus through sheer faith and undemanding of further proof aside from seeing their God.


The sight of their living God made all the Autobots into believers, save Grimlock who demanded further evidence.

[Paulbot]

Me, Grimlock did you mean in the G1 "cartoon"?

Cleary you know Primus was in the US comics because you quoted from issue #76.

[MV75]

Me, Grimlock did you mean in the G1 "cartoon"?

Cleary you know Primus was in the US comics because you quoted from issue #76.

Of course he did. I myself only count the cartoon and toyline as G1 to me. I see comics as another storyline, pretty much what beast wars is to cybertron.

Gok is just utterly useless at reading between the lines and lateral thinking.

So don't take what he said as a personal throw down or anything Me Grimlock!.

Goktimus just likes to explode his encylopedic knowledge all the time, and sometimes without doing a little pre-processing of what was really said by others first. But he's very entertaining and informative. Don't stop what you do Gok.

[Me Grimlock!]

What?! Generation 1 is a term that was retrospectively created to describe Transformers before Transformers Generation 2. Transformers Generation 2 came into existence in 1993, thus everything Transformers created before the G2 brand in 1993 is Generation 1!

If you're saying that Primus didn't exist in G1 then where did he come from?? G2? That's certainly not the case. Also, Primus originated in the UK comics - although the US and UK comics are part of the same continuity (with some notable exceptions like the Earthforce Saga).

Primus, as he originally appeared in the UK G1 comics


Primus vs Unicron in a later appearance in the US G1 comics


Suggesting that the G1 comics are not G1 is just wrong. It was Marvel Comics who created the entire background mythos for Transformers in the beginning and the comics came out before the G1 cartoon and continued long after the cartoon ended (cartoon = 1985-87, comics = 1984-92). Marvel would publish the Generation 2 comics in 1993, but Primus already made an appearance well before then. In fact, Primus doesn't appear nor is mentioned in G2 - rather G2 focuses on the malevolent divine entity known as the Swarm (ultimately transformed by the Matrix into what would be the Vok as seen in Beast Wars).


I think it's safe to say that Grimlock became a believer in Primus after Primus woke up and transported him (alongside Bumblebee, Jazz, Seawatch, Stakeout, Red Hot and Fixit to Earth). But it doesn't change the fact that Grimlock was an adamant non-believer and skeptic when the Autobots found Primus. He was the only one who refused to kneel before Primus and demanded the Keeper to prove his claim that Primus was the God of Transformers.

Grimlock came to believe in Primus after being presented with evidence, unlike the other Autobots who were willing to believe in Primus through sheer faith and undemanding of further proof aside from seeing their God.


The sight of their living God made all the Autobots into believers, save Grimlock who demanded further evidence.

Yeah - know the comic, but in my mind, G1 is the cartoon - G1 Marvel is the hash job they did in the comics - ulitmately the two universes are too different. It didn't help that successive generations have mixed the mythos of both. As far as I'm concerned the TF's were the products of the Quints. Bot = Consumer goods. Cons = Military hardware. As revealed in the post-movie episode where some of the bots got thrown back in time and met A3/Alpha Trion.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yes, but that's just your own personal opinion/preference, not a fact. The fact is that all things TF related created before the 1993 Generation 2 brand is widely considered to be Generation 1, and the term Generation 1 (also spelt "Generation One") has been adopted and used in an official capacity to describe all things pre-G2.

G1 Marvel is the hash job they did in the comics

"G1 Marvel" refers to both the comics and cartoon as Marvel also produced the cartoon under contract from Sunbow Productions... hence why you see both Marvel and Sunbow's logo in the cartoon.



And what hash job?? The comics' continuity was a lot tighter than the comics and the story-telling was done at a higher and more mature level. The comics actually gave us characters with complex facets who changed and evolved as the series progressed. The cartoon gave us largely shallow one-dimensional caricatures.

ulitmately the two universes are too different.

That doesn't make one universe more or less valid than the other. As different as they may be, they are all valid forms of G1. Be it the:
+ Comics
+ Cartoon
+ Story books
+ Colouring-in books
+ Toy continuity (e.g.: Optimus Prime's Nucleon Quest)
+ Adventure-books
+ Manga
+ Animé
etc etc etc.

Transformers has never had a single continuity and while it's fine for you to have a preference of one continuity over others, I don't think it's fair to say that your personally preferred continuity is better or more valid than others.

Holy cow it's Sparkplug's long-lost third son, Butch Witwicky!!

It didn't help that successive generations have mixed the mythos of both.

But remember that Beast Wars writers were ignorant of Transformers when they were first hired to write Beast Wars. They then made a conscious decision to research Transformers Generation 1 and 2 by watching excerpts from the cartoon, comics and toys (tech specs) - as well as consulting with Transformer fans online (hence why the show is littered with references to Transfans and Transfandom, as an act of gratitude for the assistance they got from fans).

Beast Wars is overall a continuation from an "overall G1" - which is really an amalgam of the cartoon and comics. If it bothers you that much, just think of Beast Wars as existing in another reality where their G1 was different from the cartoon or comics but happens to contain elements of both (although their reference to G2 is consistent! ).

Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio didn't have to research into G1 and G2. They could've completely ignored it and made Beast Wars into an entirely different reality - which is what most other TF writers do (e.g.: Car Robot, Armadaverse, movie, Animated, DW, IDW etc) because it's just easier for writers to do that. Slotting Beast Wars into G1/G2 continuity was hard work and required Forward and DiTillio to spend hours of their free (unpaid) time doing homework with researching into G1 and G2 continuities.

Okay, it wasn't perfect - but I really respect them for putting in that amount of dedication and effort into their work just to make us happy!

Beast Machines though carries on directly from the G1 cartoon - it draws no references from the comics (this is of course because it was written by G1 writer Marty Isenberg... although Isenberg hasn't done the same when he wrote Animated - probably because he was directed by Hasbro to make Animated a whole new continuity).

As far as I'm concerned the TF's were the products of the Quints. Bot = Consumer goods. Cons = Military hardware. As revealed in the post-movie episode where some of the bots got thrown back in time and met A3/Alpha Trion.

Again, that's your personal preference and you're entitled to it. But it doesn't mean that other continuities are less valid because of it.

I prefer the comic continuity. I much prefer the Transformers as being the children of Primus. Having said that, I don't go around discounting the G1 cartoon or any other form of G1 just because I happen to prefer the comics! I mean, I really hate the G1 Victory manga... but I don't discount it as part of G1. The fact is that it is Generation One, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks about the Decepticons being married with children (*shudders*).

"Welcome home, honey!"

So while you're perfectly welcome to your preferences and opinions - remember that it's a fact that there are aspects of G1 beyond just the cartoon and toys! Anything related to Transformers that was created under licence from Hasbro Inc. and/or Takara Co., Ltd is G1 - and it's been officially retconned as so.

There's also retro-G1 too, as in the now-defunct DW War Within and G1 series and current G1 series from IDW, including "All Hail Megatron" which is written by Australian writer (and user on this board) Shane McCarthy (there's photos of him in one of the Perth fan meet threads). (^O^)

[kup]

After reading all the Marvel comics (US&UK) for me the Marvel continuity is the continuity I think of now when refering to G1 but that's my preference only.

In my oppinion the continuity there is so much better than the cartoon and it also adds precedence as the comic is older and by the admittance of Sunbow and Marvel, the cartoon opening episodes (MTMTE) is an adaptation of the original G1 Marvel 4 issue comic miniseries. They went into radically different paths after that but the comic still has precedence and is every bit as much 'G1' as the cartoon.

It is up to the individual to choose which 'path' they wish to follow when it comes to Transformers but its hard to deny that the comics have both precedence and are every bit as much 'G1' as the cartoon and based on the legacy of a given continuity. It also could be argued that comics have more influence than the cartoon itself since the modern mythos grab much from the Marvel comics as its background with bits and pieces of the cartoon continuity (which aside from the Season 3 Quints/Unicron origin) as well being heavily influenced by the characters portrayed. This of course does not make the G1 cartoon redundant either as mythos from it have also been carried over and adapted throughout the G1 story such as Vector Sigma, Quints and the Matrix (as a solid object rather than a mystical program originated in the comics).

At the end despite which continuity one prefers to follow or which feels like the more influential; its hard to deny that both of them belong to a greater whole which now all modern mythos are based upon.