Masterpiece Cheetor confirmed

[GoktimusPrime]

I did say...

Yes, MP Beast Convoy has all kinds of goodness which the original doesn't, but to make the comparison fair we also need to bear in mind that the MP Beast Convoy is going to retail for 12960JPY (approx. AU$165), whereas the original sold for 2980JPY (approx. AU$40), or AU$70 which is a more recent price point for Ultra Class figures (e.g. Universe Onslaught, Powerglide etc.). So while the BWMPs certainly improve over the originals in many ways, the price is nearly 2.5 times more than what the original would sell for today. Actually, the price of Deluxes hasn't changed much; the original Cheetor sold for 1490JPY (approx. $20), which isn't much cheaper than the average price of a Deluxe Class figure today.

For a more recent example:
LG02 Convoy retails for 6500JPY which is approx. $80, and is half the price of MP Beast Convoy's RRP.
$165/$70 = 2.4
￥12960/￥6500 = 2

[MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!]

I think that the original Optimus Primal is still a fantastic toy, bearing in mind that it is a quarter of the price of the Masterpiece. A friend of mine recently asked me how I could possibly consider the original Rhinox to be just as good as the Generations figure, saying that the Gen. figure blows the original out of the water. I told him that it's because the Generations figure is a Voyager while the original is a Deluxe. At the Deluxe price point, which is about half the price of a Voyager, the original is still a really solid toy that's just as good as the Voyager. Relative to their respective price points, I don't think that one toy is better or worse than the other - they're equally good. Couple with the fact that the original is nearly 20 years old, then my appreciation for the original toy increases more so.

Yes, the original Primal toy is an excellent toy, but it does fall short in terms of representation of the on-screen character, and representation is a big selling point of the MP line and can even make or break whether someone buys an MP.

Look at criticisms over facesculpts, hip panels, colour and overly-cartoon accuracy -- that's all about representation and not whether the toy has any level of playability. The reverse can be true also, as a toy can have great representation, but fail as a toy -- MP-09 comes to mind here.

From what we've seen, Takara is pushing representation as one of the big selling points of Primal -- just look at the amount of facial expression accessories he gets! They want the Primal MP to look like the 'toon and they've succeeded!

Now I can understand if you already have LG-02 and are reluctant to put money down on MP-32, because at least LG-02 tried to represent the 'toon through re-tooling, but the original still falls short in this aspect.

There's also another important aspect -- it's about inclusion into the MP line which carries that level of cachet (although this has fallen recently with all the QC issues). Takara is recognising the importance BW has in the Transformers mythology and is rewarding it with MP treatments; and while we can analyse and breakdown cost and value, that gesture is priceless!

[GoktimusPrime]

When I see pics of MP Beast Convoy, it reminds me of MP Soundwave. I love MP Soundwave. He is - IMO - the best Decepticon MP we've gotten to date. But he is also one of the least "improved" MPs when compared to the original toy and factoring things like difference in price, vintage etc. - so I'm talking in relative terms. As an MP toy, Soundwave doesn't really bring all that much more to the table than the original Soundwave does as a G1 toy; the main core difference is that MP Soundwave has forward knee articulation. All the other features on MP Soundwave are more like bonus features IMO, but the core design of the is relatively on par with the G1 figure.

Does this make MP Soundwave a bad MP to me? No, it doesn't. As I said, I hold Soundwave in very high regard. But he is, in relative terms, the "least improved" over his original G1 toy compared to other G1 MPs. This is not a criticism of MP Soundwave or to say that TakaraTOMY didn't do a good job. Soundwave is a brilliant toy and TakaraTOMY did an exceptional job. This simply means that the original Soundwave toy was just that good that even 30 odd years later there is - relatively speaking - little to improve. You can't improve over perfection. And that's exactly how I feel about Beast Wars. The toys are just so good that there's not a whole lot to improve in relative terms.

As for show-likeness, I completely agree that this is a big part of MPs' appeal. But on the whole, BW show models were actually pretty toy-accurate, much more so than G1. As I'm sure you already know, this is because Mainframe placed the toys into 3D scanners and then used those scans as the basis for their show models. The end result were cartoon models with a higher level of toy-accuracy. And again, Soundwave's G1 model was one that was relatively more toy-accurate than some others, and similarly MP Soundwave doesn't need to do much to achieve show-likeness (red visor, there you go ).

Just because I'm not personally interested in collecting BW MPs doesn't mean that I don't like them. MP Beast Convoy looks fantastic, but I'm content enough with my original that I don't personally feel the urge to own it. I might feel differently about an MP Dinobot or Blackarachnia though, I will confess.

P.S.: I think that it's unfair and invalid to criticise the original toy for falling short of being an accurate representation of the show since the toy came first. It's kinda like criticising Latin for being a poor representation of English. Look at G1 Ironhide/Ratchet for example and forget about the cartoon for a minute. Looking at these toys purely on the merit of being stand alone action figures, they are easily the weakest among the 1984-85 Autobot Cars. They made sense in the context of Diaclone, but the toys just did not "translate" well as Transformers. Unlike MP Soundwave, MP Ironhide isn't fundamentally the same as his G1 counterpart, Ironhide utterly smashes G1 Ironhide out of the ball park! We can compare G1 and MP Soundwave. We have been comparing BW and MP Optimus Primal. But there is no comparison between G1 and MP Ironhide. Relative to price, relative to size, relative to vintage etc. - even after factoring in all these things, MP Ironhide just demolishes the G1 toy. MP Soundwave leaves me grinning from ear to ear, but I've yet to pick my jaw up off the floor after getting MP Ironhide.

[MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!]

P.S.: I think that it's unfair and invalid to criticise the original toy for falling short of being an accurate representation of the show since the toy came first.

It is not a criticism, it is a reason why Takara thinks an MP is required for Primal. And it is reason enough, along with the 20th Anniversary and the recognition of importance, to convince the bean counters at Takara HQ to take the financial risk and do an MP treatment for Primal.

Now as a consumer, you have every right to do whatever you want with your hard-earned dollar -- buy or not-to-buy, that is up to you... looking over at PC, they've sold out of their Primals, and HLJ have him on order stop, so there is enough appetite for the figure to justify it being made, even if it is just a minor improvement over the original.

[GoktimusPrime]

looking over at PC, they've sold out of their Primals, and HLJ have him on order stop, so there is enough appetite for the figure to justify it being made, even if it is just a minor improvement over the original.

Understandably so. Even though Soundwave may be a relatively "less improved" MP, that toy sold out quickly at pre-orders, and the local Hasbro version flew off shelves. And I really hope that TakaraTOMY enjoys the same success with their BW MPs.

[doublespy]

I agree that MP Soundwave had the least to improve on among the Masterpiece figures simply because his show model was among the closest the the G1 toy, but that Masterpiece figure still was a HUGE improvement upon the original imo (and I'm not counting the absolutely brilliant cassettes). If nothing else, the articulation in bot mode, and the proportions in both modes.

I think people often under-estimate the importance of proportions, and how hard it is to get it just right. Getting the generic shape right is far from being "show accurate". If you've done 3D modelling you'd know it's not easy to recreate a 2D design in the three-dimensional form; because a cartoon design is not an engineering drawing with exact measurements, and going by the G1 character sheets simply isn't enough. I remember in the MP10 interview, Hasui talked about how much trouble he had to get Prime's head and face right. Everyone knows what Prime looks like, but to make a 3D object to give that "damn he looks like he walked right out of the cartoon!" feeling, is another story. IMO only a handful of MP figures (not even all of them but Hasui is a master at getting it right) achieved this, and Soundwave is one of them. The G1 figure had a flat head, block limbs; even if MP Soundwave replicated the exact same engineering of the G1 toy and only improved on sculpt and proportions, to me, it's still light years ahead from the original.

For the same reason, Primal is much improved over the original in both modes, and I'm glad they gave him the MP treatment.

[GoktimusPrime]

^Excellent point, but I would still say that in relative terms (e.g. price, size, vintage etc.), G1 and MP Soundwave are more or less on par with each other. Making a direct comparison between a G1 and MP toy is like comparing apples with oranges, so I prefer to compare them in relative terms according to the standards of their own respective lines. G1 Soundwave is a kick@$$ toy by G1 standards and MP Soundwave is a kick@$$ toy by MP standards.

On the other hand, MP Ironhide is a kick@$$ toy by MP standards too, but G1 Ironhide is a sub-par toy by G1 standards. Think back to the first time you saw a G1 Ironhide or Ratchet in the 1980s and what you thought about it. You can ask people who their favourite G1 Autobot Car was, and I doubt too many people would've nominated Ironhide or Ratchet. Hhhmmm... gives me an idea for a poll...

[MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!]

And I really hope that TakaraTOMY enjoys the same success with their BW MPs.

Absolutely! And not just because i'm a BW fan, but because I hope it encourages TT to be bold and consider other facets of the Transformers mythology that are interesting, unique, iconic or influential.

[Verno]

The topic of scale within potential MP BW toys came up in a topic on TFW2005. There's no definitive scale within the show as some characters seem to grow or shrink between episodes, but using heights given by the Japanese trading cards combined with the observations from the show, we came up with the following:



Taking MP Primal as the benchmark, who is 19cm tall, if we're happy with his height in the show as 2.5m, it means that every centimeter of MP toy represents 13.15cm. Using that same scale for the rest of the Season 1 cast, we end up with the following:

Blackarachnia - 2m (15cm)
Rattrap - 2m (15cm)
Scorponok - 2.1m (16cm)
Waspinator - 2.2m (16.5cm)
Airazor - 2.3m (17.5cm)
Cheetor - 2.3m (17.5cm)
Tarantulas - 2.3m (17.5cm)
Optimus Primal - 2.5m (19cm)
Tigatron - 2.5m (19cm)
Terrorsaur - 2.5m (19cm)
Rhinox - 2.8m (21cm)
Inferno - 2.8m (21cm)
Dinobot - 2.9m (22cm)
Megatron - 3m (23cm)

[BigTransformerTrev]

I hope they do a transmetal retool of it, I might get the figure then. Was always disappointed there was no transmetal versions of Generations Rattrap and Rhinox. Those toys would be perfect for those of us that quite liked BW but don't like organic looking alt modes. And I quite liked the episode where Cheetor got his transmetal body and was rocketing around the place so a MP version of that would hold a lot of appeal for me