Toybot Importz feedback

[ozlee]

What makes me sad about reading this thread is the apparent lack of knowledge that the members here have about small business... not the delays from TBI.

They give cheap prices by probably (this is a guess) buying from overseas and importing by boat... this takes time, depends on when the container the dock loads is full enoug to send, and has to go through the port AND customs.... so no you won’t get your item on release day.

The one thing that appears to have lots of trouble arriving.... Versions of Megatron... did everyone forget he’s hard to get through customs without getting seized? That didn’t go away guys...

And as for refunds.... this isn’t big box retail with masses of funds from other areas or departments... there’s no shareholders for revenue raising... no hardware division to bail out the department store... no increase on pet food to cover savings on milk... this guy appears to be doing it right. Your money for MP-XX goes to the supplier of MP-XX, for the goods of MP-XX. So when you ask for a refund because you got tired of waiting, your money has already gone to his supplier... it’s not sitting in his bank account waiting for you to want it back. And if he was to refund, then he is stuck with an item no one wants any more, and he would ave to sell at a loss.

All this is common sense and should have been assumed when you placed your order. He had a problem with people understanding shipping and ordering... (who would have thought instock and preorder would be sent together when you paid one lot of shipping!!!) and because of this he had to change what he offered... and people still complain about (making this example up but close enough)wave 2 not arriving yet when it was ordered with wave 5... which hit retail today, so will be sent from his supplier next week sometime... we have become such a bunch of Veruca Salt’s singing “I want it now!!!” I’m embarrassed of our collecting community as a whole!

So if opyou order cheap, be patient... otherwise hope you see the 5 days it’s on preorder, pay the premium, get it from Japan and pay your gst and shipping and gst on shipping and stop complaining that you had to wait longer then those that paid for the “slow boat from China”

I think what is making people frustrated is not because they are not understanding how a small business works but how TBI is not transparent about their orders and not responding to emails about dates and refunds for overdue items.
You cannot just run a business that way and expect people who put in their hard earned cash to sit back and wonder if their items are coming. There are more things wrong with how he runs a business than not but I am not going to list them because I do not want to start a war here. Go and read through the previous posts and FB if you want to learn more.

[Krayt]

I think what is making people frustrated is not because they are not understanding how a small business works but how TBI is not transparent about their orders and not responding to emails about dates and refunds for overdue items.
You cannot just run a business that way and expect people who put in their hard earned cash to sit back and wonder if their items are coming. There are more things wrong with how he runs a business than not but I am not going to list them because I do not want to start a war here. Go and read through the previous posts and FB if you want to learn more.

Every item has an ETA and the ETAs are noted as being dynamic.

Refunds are defined in the conditions as being NOT AVAILABLE.

So people who email about refunds complain they got no response... but the conditions say no refunds...

And the update is coming.... some people started complaining so he posted a work in progress shot of the update... that was NOT THE UPDATE!... it was also in a private group that isn’t to be shared outside of the group... once again, that’s the conditions of being a member of that group... so stop complaining and follow the rules while waiting for the actual update

[yoshi594]

Every item has an ETA and the ETAs are noted as being dynamic.

Refunds are defined in the conditions as being NOT AVAILABLE.

So people who email about refunds complain they got no response... but the conditions say no refunds...

Actually consumer law overrides anything that is contradicted in TBI's terms and conditions.

"they know, or should have known, they would not be able to supply the products or services within the timeframe indicated or if no timeframe was provided, within a reasonable time"

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/treating-customers-fairly/consumers-rights-obligations

i'll reiterate on mp-43 megatron. it's been 8-9 months after release. That is well beyond reasonable time. If you think this is reasonable then I guess PC had an ok business model.

Mastercard also has a section for goods and services not provided found in this document that helped me win against PC.

https://www.mastercard.us/content/dam/mccom/en-us/documents/rules/chargeback-guide.pdf

[ozlee]

Every item has an ETA and the ETAs are noted as being dynamic.

Refunds are defined in the conditions as being NOT AVAILABLE.

So people who email about refunds complain they got no response... but the conditions say no refunds...

And the update is coming.... some people started complaining so he posted a work in progress shot of the update... that was NOT THE UPDATE!... it was also in a private group that isn’t to be shared outside of the group... once again, that’s the conditions of being a member of that group... so stop complaining and follow the rules while waiting for the actual update

Like what yoshi594 said a business T&C cannot override the law. If a customer requests for refund because deadlines are missed and they are not getting any confidence in the business to deliver their items then they have every single right for a refund.

And I think you are missing the point - my point was ignoring customers' questions and feedback is not a good way of running a business and people have the rights to complain.

I guess you also failed to see that PC were doing exactly the same thing before they disappeared into thin air.

[Omega Metro]

Sent a message the other day and immediately got a response. Also had a shipping email today.

[Raider]

Every item has an ETA and the ETAs are noted as being dynamic.

Refunds are defined in the conditions as being NOT AVAILABLE.

So people who email about refunds complain they got no response... but the conditions say no refunds...

This is not true. It is unlawful to state that no refunds are available or words to that effect as it implies that refunds are not available in any circumstance. The T&Cs only refer to the pre-order price being non-refundable if "you choose to cancel your pre-order".

Like what yoshi594 said a business T&C cannot override the law. If a customer requests for refund because deadlines are missed and they are not getting any confidence in the business to deliver their items then they have every single right for a refund.

You need to be careful about what you are saying here. To be clear, consumers have protections under the ACL that no T&Cs can override. That is true. However, TBI's T&Cs do not seem to be breaching the ACL as far as I can tell. A business cannot have a "no refunds" clause. They must provide refunds in certain circumstances as set out in the ACL. As mentioned above, TBI does not have a "no refunds" clause. In fact, their T&Cs states:

"In the event you choose to cancel your pre-order, the full cost, including shipping, is non-refundable due to administrative costs and other fees incurred by us. We keep our product costs low by ordering in bulk and we are still obliged to pay suppliers for any pre-ordered products initially ordered. We are not able to cancel or reduce quantities from our suppliers once ordered." (emphasis added)

"Subject to any relevant legislation which restricts or prohibits the exclusion, restriction or modification of an implied warranty, condition or obligation, Toybot Importz reserves the right to limit its liability in respect of any claim to the refund of an amount equivalent to the price paid for the product or service in question."

"Our policy on returns is in addition to your rights under the Australian Consumer Law because we want you to be happy with your purchase. Please read the above carefully to ensure you are fully aware of your rights under this policy and our obligations to you."

They appear to be very well aware of the position under the ACL. Now, you have stated "because deadlines are missed and they are not getting any confidence in the business to deliver their items then they have every single right for a refund". That is not true. I presume you are talking about the protections under section 36 of Schedule 2 of the ACL. The actual requirements are:

(4) A person who, in trade or commerce, accepts payment or other consideration for goods or services must supply all the goods or services:

(a) within the period specified by or on behalf of the person at or before the time the payment or other consideration was accepted; or

(b) if no period is specified at or before that time—within a reasonable time.

What is a reasonable time is not really defined. This is where it comes into an analysis of what other comparative stores are providing as their delivery times. No doubt some of the discussion about waiting 12 months past release date is likely to fall outside of a reasonable time, unless of course the item is being held to be shipped with other items that were ordered at the same time and still not available for supply.

They even state in their T&Cs "In placing a pre-order, you understand this fully and accept we are not responsible for any delays in delivery of the products beyond the listed estimated date of arrival." There is also mention that the estimate is an estimate only and that they may update "estimated dates of arrival once we are notified that products are completed and we have notification of shipping from our suppliers". This presumably goes to sub-section (5):

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply if:

(a) the person’s failure to supply all the goods or services within the period, or within a reasonable time, was due to the act or omission of another person, or to some other cause beyond the person’s control; and

(b) the person took reasonable precautions and exercised due diligence to avoid the failure.

Overall, it is not as simple as saying you have lost confidence in the business to deliver the items. The legislation requires an analysis of whether the item will be delivered within a reasonable time. If anyone has concerns about how the law applies, I suggest calling up the ACCC or Fair Trading and seeking some guidance from them.

PS: This is general guidance and not to be taken as legal advice

[1AZRAEL1]

Thank you for posting a lengthy guidance lol. Makes alot of sense.

[yoshi594]

TBI only mentions the australian consumer law once and that's on returns

"Our policy on returns is in addition to your rights under the Australian Consumer Law because we want you to be happy with your purchase. Please read the above carefully to ensure you are fully aware of your rights under this policy and our obligations to you."

They however do not mention anything about the consumer law for refunds and "reasonable time". Having said that, it is a choice to cancel/ask for refund for an item that's beyond reasonable (mp-43 if not purchased with another pending item). If the person didn't know about the consumer law, they wouldn't dare to refund/cancel because of the T&C

In the event you choose to cancel your pre-order, the full cost, including shipping, is non-refundable due to administrative costs and other fees incurred by us. We keep our product costs low by ordering in bulk and we are still obliged to pay suppliers for any pre-ordered products initially ordered. We are not able to cancel or reduce quantities from our suppliers once ordered.

Most common people would not know about the "reasonable time" clause as demonstrated in this thread.

[Raider]

They however do not mention anything about the consumer law for refunds and "reasonable time". Having said that, it is a choice to cancel/ask for refund for an item that's beyond reasonable (mp-43 if not purchased with another pending item). If the person didn't know about the consumer law, they wouldn't dare to refund/cancel because of the T&C

I'm not sure I agree with you on this. Almost any consumer knows that if you pay for a good and don't receive it that you are entitled to your money back. Further, it is not the obligations of a business to point out to consumers every legal right they may have. If they had to point out all the protections under the ACL their T&Cs would be 10 times larger. People clearly don't read them as they stand.

There needs to be a measure of responsibilty that consumers take for themselves. Some people have genuine gripes, no doubt. Some are chronic complainers where no one can meet their expectations. Others are just ignorant of taking personal responsibility. No matter which category someone may fall into, they need to ensure that they are cognisant of the fact that they need to take a measure of personal responsibilty, mixed with tempered and reaslistic expectation.

On another note, has anyone ever cancelled their pre-order and not received a full refund? Whilst their T&Cs state they won't refund in that circumstace, I bet in practice they still do. I am not counting chargeback requests or paypal disputes.

[Mikael]

Is there a TBI representative on this forum, using an alias or otherwise? It would be helpful to see the real TBI here to respond in a similar way to the FB page. Nothing worse than heaps of questions with no real responses, nothing can be assumed otherwise. Unlike FB, would be more transparent.