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Thread: SPOILER THREAD - The Last Jedi

  1. #151
    bowspearer Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark View Post
    (not really sure why it has to be framed as 'giving Rian Johnson the finger'?)
    I was paraphrasing the guy doing it. In an interview he did - I think it was with Geeks and Gamers, that was the exact turn of phrase he used.

  2. #152
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    Recently watched TLJ for a second time. Definitely not aging like a fine wine and is aging worse than TFA. But the lightspeed kamikaze attack on Snoke's ship remains priceless and the best scene in the film.

  3. #153
    bowspearer Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by shockNwave View Post
    Recently watched TLJ for a second time. Definitely not aging like a fine wine and is aging worse than TFA.
    So you mean it's aging like milk?

  4. #154
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    I saw it once at the cinema at midnight then a 2nd time on blu-ray. I definitely appreciated it more the 2nd time, after the hubbub and things settled down and seeing some articles. I will watch it again for sure though as well.
    I have no gripes with Luke's portrayal or anything like that. I think some of the execution of ideas just may not have been that great.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowspearer View Post
    So you mean it's aging like milk?
    As I said under the Solo thread; it's aging like a limburger but milk will do.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark View Post
    That should be interesting to follow. Not a fan of the use of the force theme in that scene though.

    I'm a big advocate of fan edits in general. The gold standard has to be the Star Wars Revisisted project - I prefer the adywan versions of ANH and ESB over the current Lucasfilm approved cuts.

    (not really sure why it has to be framed as 'giving Rian Johnson the finger'?)
    The Force theme was originally Luke's theme, but ended up so overused that it became the theme for the force. It's probably my favourite piece out of the lot, but I'll be damned if they haven't run it into the ground.
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bidoofdude View Post
    The Force theme was originally Luke's theme, but ended up so overused that it became the theme for the force. It's probably my favourite piece out of the lot, but I'll be damned if they haven't run it into the ground.
    Originally there was the Emperor's theme but after it was used as Darth Maul's/Darth Sidious' theme in TPM it became the theme of the dark side of the force from that point onwards.
    On one hand it would help if John William's could be more creative but on the other hand taking risks could blow up in John's face if the new theme is substandard.

  8. #158
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    From the Rise of Skywalker Spoiler discussion thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark View Post
    Re: Canto Bite, there are two things to consider

    1) It was meant to fail. It was a dogfaeces plan, that then failed and got a bunch of people killed, same as the plan to attack the Dreadnought at the start of the film. It's part of Poe's arc. He has to learn that you can't lead by flying by the seat of your pants. You can't lead on rash impulse. That might get you by as a fighter pilot, but it gets people hurt when you apply it to leading. As with Luke in ESB, the film bothers to show him and his plans failing. I'm not saying its my favourite section in any Star Wars film, but it has a purpose. Ironically, to say it was pointless and led to nothing is both to miss the point entirely but also kind of get it. It doesn't move the plot forward - in fact it hinders our protagonists. It absolutely moves Poe's character forward though.

    2) It really doesn't take that much screen time up. It's literally two sections. The first is that they land and get chucked in jail. The second is when they escape from prison and free the planet. It's not like it's cutting back for forth for the whole middle third of the film.
    As you've just pointed out, in those other examples, the failure was an important part of the character's development. It was meant to be painful lesson for Poe to care about the wellbeing of those under his command and not blindly sacrifice his troops for the sake of completing missions. Otherwise they'd be no better than the First Order who treat their soldiers as entirely expendable resources (and strips them of their humanity). I'm not entirely sure what Finn and Rose's personal journeys were with the Canto Bite scene, and especially if it was worth the narrative diversion.

    I wasn't entirely satisfied with Poe's journey either... the whole mutiny side-plot seemed unnecessary. I get that it's telling us that he's trying to grow and learn as a leader, but they already accomplished that with the Dreadnought bombing scene. Extending it with the mutiny thing seemed unnecessary (again, less is more) and also illogical from a story POV. Why didn't Leia and Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was? Especially when he had guns pointed at Holdo. We see that when Poe discovers Holdo's plan he actually thinks it's a good one and wholeheartedly agrees with it. Why didn't they just do this from the beginning? Geez...

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Kitty Fantastico View Post
    Not necessarily - the First Order only picked up the Resistance transports because DJ sold them out to save himself, which he wouldn't have been able to do if Rosefinn hadn't recruited him and then let him overhear Poe talking about them having cloaked ships. I mean sure somebody on the Supercalifragilistic might've thought to scan for cloaks anyway just in case (you'd think that'd be routine, but maybe once you've built a ship 60km wide there's not much left in the budget for repairing wear-and-tear on the scanners so they save money by just having a guy look out the window instead), but just from what's on screen it looks like Holdo's original plan (the one that didn't involve ramming) might've worked. Of course they'd still have needed somebody to come pick them up, but they'd have had more time to play with while the First Order chased an empty cruiser, and "Hey can we get an Uber?" might have gotten a better response from the Resistance's so-called allies than "Hey giant laser pointed at us and we're doomed, wanna come join in?"
    This makes me dislike the Canto Bite side-quest even more now.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    From the Rise of Skywalker Spoiler discussion thread:

    As you've just pointed out, in those other examples, the failure was an important part of the character's development. It was meant to be painful lesson for Poe to care about the wellbeing of those under his command and not blindly sacrifice his troops for the sake of completing missions. Otherwise they'd be no better than the First Order who treat their soldiers as entirely expendable resources (and strips them of their humanity). I'm not entirely sure what Finn and Rose's personal journeys were with the Canto Bite scene, and especially if it was worth the narrative diversion.

    I wasn't entirely satisfied with Poe's journey either... the whole mutiny side-plot seemed unnecessary. I get that it's telling us that he's trying to grow and learn as a leader, but they already accomplished that with the Dreadnought bombing scene. Extending it with the mutiny thing seemed unnecessary (again, less is more) and also illogical from a story POV. Why didn't Leia and Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was? Especially when he had guns pointed at Holdo. We see that when Poe discovers Holdo's plan he actually thinks it's a good one and wholeheartedly agrees with it. Why didn't they just do this from the beginning? Geez...
    Poe's journey is essentially learning that no matter how good his intentions are, he can't lead on impulse and has to consider the bigger picture, and the film shows us this by repeating a pattern three times, but changing the payoff at the end of show that he's learned.

    The first time is the Dreadnought assault. His heart is in the right place, but he failed to consider the bigger picture by launching an assault on the capital ship instead of just distracting them to give the fleet time to escape, in doing so going directly against the orders of General Leia. All of the Resistance bomber wing is destroyed, as is most of their fighter corps. At the end someone has to sacrifice their life to cover for his failure (Paige).

    The second time is the hacker plan and the mutiny. Again he has good intentions, but he acts without considering the big picture (including just how dumb the plan was). People die when the plan falls apart, and someone has to sacrifice their life to cover for his failure (Holdo). The importance of this was showing that he wants to lead outside the cockpit too, not just lead a fighter wing.

    Finally, he leads the ski-speeder charge against the First Order. Realising the attack isn't going to work, he calls the survivors back, showing that he's learned from the errors he had made previously. Because he's learned, no one has to sacrifice themselves to cover for him (Finn doesn't have to suicide ram the First Order cannon). He's placed in the same position that he himself had put Leia in at the start of the film - Finn is egging him on to rush to help Luke, but Poe sees the bigger picture, being that the Resistance need to get the hell out of there.

    (I don't meant to demean you by spelling all this out, I just enjoy that it's the same process each time - rash action, defy superior who has the bigger picture in mind, someone has to sacrifice themselves)

    It's not a storyline without issue. You're right that it would have been more logical from an audience point of view for Holdo to tell Poe what her plan was, or to have a 'spy in the fleet' storyline like the BSG episode that inspired the hyperspace tracking thing, if only to justify why she didn't tell him (and maybe give more context to the throwaway "we tracked their fleet" in TFA that led to the First Order finding their base). All I can offer is that Poe had been demoted after the most disastrous of Pyrrhic victories, which clearly played into Holdo's initial disdain for him. Also, "we ran a decloacking scan" is one of the worst lines of dialogue in any of these films, and what infuriates me is that it so easily could have been fixed. Just say that the hacker told them how to calibrate their scanners, anything. Don't just make out that you pressed the button that reveals invisible things. Why aren't you pressing that button all the time? Why isn't it glued down? It falls just the wrong side of 'it's a fantasy film, give them the benefit of the doubt' for me.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that Holdo "wholeheartedly agreed" with his plan either. She said she liked his spirit, and only after he was out of commission. The Resistance is an armed force, and she was his superior officer. I've read conflicting thoughts on this from members of armed forces on various forums and social media - some say that they wholeheartedly understood where Holdo was coming from and that she didn't need to justify herself to Poe, and others saying the opposite.

    Re: Finn - I agree that Finn was sidelined. TLJ was a film with three primary focus characters - Rey, Kylo and Poe. There are other characters with arcs in the film (such as Luke, and indeed Finn) but they're secondary to the primary three. To be fair Finn did still have an arc - through both TFA and TLJ it was the same as Han's through ANH and ESB. He went from being in it just for himself at the start of the first film, to in primarily for his friends by beginning of the second film. By the end of the second film he's in it for cause itself, as opposed to just his own friends. There's progression there, even if he's not a focus character.

    Re: Rose - I'm not sure how much of an proper story arc she was in a position to have, in the same way that supporting characters appearing primarily in one of these films never seem to get development. She essentially goes in the same basket as Lando in ESB - he's there, he interacts with and supports our heroes, but there's no arc to his character so to speak. Same as Qui Gon in TPM, for example, or even Chewbacca.
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  10. #160
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    Gotta say, since watching The Rise of Skywalker I like TLJ a lot better, because at least it had some themes and character stuff in it.

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