Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Point of diminishing returns on Masterpiece
As the Masterpiece line spreads out into generations of Transformers other than G1 I was wondering what series do you guys think would receive little benefit from the MP treatment?
For instance I feel that the Car Robots/RID specific moulds would only be marginally upgraded on going to the MP format because the show was drawn very toy accurate. Probably better to do what they are doing with the Encore reissue of Fire Convoy and God Magnus than ever do an MP of those figures.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Entirely my personal opinion...
I personally feel that most toys made after G2 stand to benefit far less from being remade as CHUG or MP toys compared to G1 and most G2 figures. And of course the main reason for this is that Beast Wars gave us the Transformers toy Renaissance which has set the standard for which Transformers toys have been made ever since.
When I look at CHUG and MP toys based on post-G2 figures, I find that very few of them are substantially superior to their original counterparts, especially factoring in things like size and price. e.g.
* Rhinox = considering that we're looking at a Deluxe vs. Voyager (i.e. double the price), the Generations toy is, in relative terms, on par with the original IMO. Both are great toys in their own right.
* Waspinator = this is a really easy comparison because both the original and Generations figures are Deluxes, and IMO they're both on par with each other. I don't find either figure to be significantly better or worse than the other.
* Tankor (fat) = actually in relative terms, I find the Generations figure to be inferior to the original BM Mega figure. While more show-like, the original figure offered loads more fun and play value as a toy. I'd rate the Generations figure as being on par with the BM Basic Tank Drone.
* Rattrap = We're comparing a Basic with a Deluxe, and again I find both figures to be on par with each other. Sure, the Generations figure offers a lot more, but it also has a fiddly transformation and the Basic is a really good One Step Changer. Compare the original Rattrap with any One Step Changer today -- they sure don't make 'em like they used to! I find both to be great toys in their own right.
* Cheetor = here we're looking at two Deluxes and an MP. Here I find Universe Cheetor to be hands down inferior to the original. The problem with the CHUG figure is that it blends elements from Beast Wars and Beast Machines and it suffers from the elements drawn from BM Cheetor. The MP toy is nice (although those whiskers look like they'd be prone to snapping), but when factoring relative price point I find that both the original and MP are equally deserving figures.
* Optimus Primal (gorilla) = comparing the original Ultra Class with the MP - both are just excellent toys. Really fantastic. But in relative terms I don't find either to be better or worse than the other. MP Beast Convoy was the first and last BW MP toy that I bought.
And looking at pics of MP Dinobot, yeah, it looks really fantastic. But look at its price point compared to the original being just a Deluxe Class figure. I don't think that the MP figure offers much more than the original when we factor in price difference. If you want a better Dinobot then you're better off getting the Universe or Henkei version. That mould does a top job in creating a more show-like Dinobot within the confines of a Deluxe size/budget. But hey, if you want high class slavish show accuracy and you don't mind shelling out the bucks, then MP Dinobot is great in that regard.
And I would feel the same as you if they ever did Car Robot/RiD as CHUG/MP... I probably wouldn't buy them. Maybe a CHUG Super Fire Convoy. But most of the others are just fine the way they are. I wouldn't mind affordable reissues.
The main exception I would make would be ARMADA. Because a lot of the original Armada toys were just badly designed, even for its time. Remember that Armada was the immediate follow up to Car Robot/RiD. Armada toys were so poorly made that it gave rise to the fan phrase to describe toys that were compromised by its gimmick - "WhY My ShOuLd3R5 hUrT?" and the whole "JaAM!" thing. Even Hasbro poked fun at this when they made CHUG Hot Shot and gave him the number plate that said "JAAM."Universe Hot Shot is a much better toy that Armada Hot Shot, and Combiner Wars Armada Megatron is definitely better than the original. I personally wouldn't collect CHUG/MP Armada figures just because as a child of the 80s Armada doesn't hold childhood nostalgia for me, but I do think that Armada (and also Energon) is a line that would benefit more from a CHUG/MP treatment.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Now, we're really at a point where another iteration of MPs we've already had, is definitely going to show diminishing returns - MP-1 to MP-10 arguably already showed it! A transforming Megatron just isn't going to get much better than MP-36, or if it is, i doubt i'd be willing to pay for it now!Originally Posted by DELTAprime
Personally speaking, I would like to get more G1 based MPs the most. But I get the most excited for an MP toy that looks to be a substantial improvement, and is of a character design that I like as well. I'd really love an Armada Starscream, as it's one of my favourite Starscream redesigns and he's only had a little justice in the Generations figure! I'm open to any era or any design really, because especially in recent times, they've shown just how much further than can push the design of these things.
I think most of us felt BW Optimus Primal didn't really need an MP figure, or "What could they improve?". But it's clear now, they can improve a lot even on the best toys of the past. And the more they challenge themselves with characters like that, the more they learn for the next figure.
There's just so many other, great character designs they can draw on, I hope they can release something from every era rather than revisiting Prime or some others again and again. MP could go on forever if they can pull it off!
I know you said "most toys", but I think if we're to compare them relatively, then it simply comes down to how good the original toy was in the first place, which isn't necessarily tied to the era or line. Something like G1 to MP Soundwave didn't really stand to benefit as much as say G1 to MP Megatron. ROTF to MP Devastator could show substantial improvement
It's an interesting discussion though, i'd like to see which MPs people think are the most substantially improved. You mentioned Cheetor as equally deserving, but i'd have him as one of the most improved! Not to say the original toy was bad for the time though.
Maybe because you're factoring in price, whereas i don't think that's really fair. G1 was a general consumer grade line and so it makes sense to me, to compare it to CHUG etc if anything, but not MP. If there was a collector grade toyline in the 80's, i wonder how much better they could have been back then (and how much pricier!). You're also talking about a loooong time frame where so much has changed. Not a lot else garners that kind of comparison. You wouldn't buy a 4K TV and ask the salesman how it compares value-wise to a CRT of the 80's right? It's kind of irrelevant IMO.
For me, although the MPs are expensive, space is the bigger premium! So, i'm happy to get one really nice figure every few months instead of several cheaper (but sometimes still nice, don't get me wrong) figures. Just for a while, when i was collecting from one line to the next, it really became apparent just how many times i was buying the same character, or very similar designs. MP kind of makes a lot of toys i own (and still like), a bit redundant.
But even something like Henkei Jazz makes the PotP Jazz redundant, and not worth any amount of money to me. Ironically, PotP Jazz' car mode is kind of what I want from the regular lines now - inspired by the past, but not virtually identical. His dollar shop slab-arms in robot mode though... no thanks! I'd be more excited for regular lines if they went back to Armadaverse ethos in terms of character design. That and today's comparatively gimmick-less toys would be a good combination I think!
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Of course I'm factoring in price. And I take your point about regular consumer toy vs collector grade, but this factor cuts both ways. e.g. Considering that the original Ultra Optimus Primal toy was a general mass release kids' toy it is really an exceptionally fantastic figure. This is why I consider it to be on par with MP Beast Convoy. Yes, MP Beast Convoy is a much more advanced toy, but it's also quadruple the price. MP Beast Convoy is like a luxury sports car whereas the original is like a really nice regular car. You can say that both are just as good as each other given their relative price, and yes, target market etc. Price is the easiest factor for me as it also indicates how much money was allocated to the toy's R&D budget and it gives you a direct indication of dollar value. It's not the sole indicator of a toy's value, but it's a pretty obvious one to see.
And I also agree with what you said about G1 v MP Soundwave, and it also does show just how well made G1 Soundwave was. In relative terms I would absolutely say that G1 and MP Soundwave are on par with each other. Shockwave's another one that's like that too (although unlike G1 Shockwave, I don't have to worry about MP Laserwave's legs getting loose and being unable to support his own body weight, or his hose crumbling). But for the most part, I find that the average G1 CHUG/MP are a marked improvement over their originals. And it's not necessarily to say that the originals were bad but as I said, it was because they were made before the Beast Wars Renaissance.
...and I personally quite like the original Cheetor toy. I thought it was good, even for its time. Reading back the review I wrote about it way back then, the only nitpick I had was that his legs could swing up forwards all the way (i.e. he can't do a King Leonidas "THIS IS SPARTAAAA!" style kick
Rank 6 - Dedicated Member
Soundwave highlights one of my big disappointments with the MP version. The batteries on the original were an awesomely innovative method of weapon storage and the failure to copy it was notable.
I think examples like Soundwave, Shockwave, and the beasts have something in common. Fairly limited transformation options. The first iterations nailed what you could do with the altmode pretty well. How many ways can you turn a gorilla into a humanoid robot and retain the original feel?
In comparison the vehicles of G1 could be improved in two directions. More refined (even licensed) alt modes, and vastly more articulated robot modes.
Revisions like CHUG become interesting because for practical purposes they can't license. So CHUG lends itself more to homages and reimaginings.
As noted above later series already have well articulated robots and no licensing issues so the only area of improvement is in that premium feel. Paint, ratchets, more parts, and cleaner lines, etc.
Is that enough? Probably. But not now. At the moment they are too close to the originals in quality. But in 10 years time toy design will have moved further on and the relevant children will be of an age where they want their old toys but with that premium collector's feel.
Rank 6 - Dedicated Member
I only know one thing, it is time for the MP line to end.
That is my overall feeling of it. Good in many ways, save me a lot of money.
As for normal toy line, I have not bothered with it.
TT toys quality have not been on par to the toys I do collect. and I have decided to quit thanks to certain retailer as well.
I will not discuss about quality or premium to TT toys and I felt there isn't much. When you see people justifying and allowing compromised quality, I knew this was it there and then.
I hate to say it but the 3p has done a "what is the MP line is supposed to be" and sorry to say they did very well in many areas and even exceed expectations.
Last edited by drifand; 26th December 2017 at 09:14 AM.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
I don't want to dwell on the point, but maybe "quadruple the price" isn't that fair though. I guess you're remembering from childhood or you found the original Ultra's AU price? But 3 years ago they re-released it for 6500Y, which puts it around half as expensive as MP Beast Convoy at 12000Y. That's a fairer comparison I think.Of course I'm factoring in price. And I take your point about regular consumer toy vs collector grade, but this factor cuts both ways. e.g. Considering that the original Ultra Optimus Primal toy was a general mass release kids' toy it is really an exceptionally fantastic figure. This is why I consider it to be on par with MP Beast Convoy. Yes, MP Beast Convoy is a much more advanced toy, but it's also quadruple the price. MP Beast Convoy is like a luxury sports car whereas the original is like a really nice regular car. You can say that both are just as good as each other given their relative price, and yes, target market etc. Price is the easiest factor for me as it also indicates how much money was allocated to the toy's R&D budget and it gives you a direct indication of dollar value. It's not the sole indicator of a toy's value, but it's a pretty obvious one to see.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
It's kind of hard to see most of Animated or Prime benefiting much from a Masterpiece treatment. Apart from maybe Lugnut or Knockout.
Beast Wars depends on the toy/character IMO. I only have Cheetor, not interested in Optimus Primal because I'm happy with the Transmetal one. I'll skip on Dinobot too, though I do think it looks nice - I just like the Transmetal 2 design better, and like Dinobot as a villain for the Odieverse. But damn if TM2 Dinobot couldn't do with a better toy. Rampage and Depth Charge are fine as is, but I could really go a TM2 Megatron - in fact it's my Number 1 most-wanted MP, not that I think we'll ever get one. Voyager Rhinox is good enough for me, but I would probably upgrade to an MP if/when they make an MP Rhinox. I'd also be all over an MP Beast Wars Ravage.
About the only 'really good' toy I would like to see an MP of is G2 Laser Prime/Black Convoy/RiD Scourge. The toy still holds up just fine, but it's such a nice, solid design with good play- and display options that I reckon it could make for a good Masterpiece as well.
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