Point of diminishing returns on Masterpiece

[kurdt_the_goat]

As the Masterpiece line spreads out into generations of Transformers other than G1 I was wondering what series do you guys think would receive little benefit from the MP treatment?

For instance I feel that the Car Robots/RID specific moulds would only be marginally upgraded on going to the MP format because the show was drawn very toy accurate. Probably better to do what they are doing with the Encore reissue of Fire Convoy and God Magnus than ever do an MP of those figures.

Now, we're really at a point where another iteration of MPs we've already had, is definitely going to show diminishing returns - MP-1 to MP-10 arguably already showed it! A transforming Megatron just isn't going to get much better than MP-36, or if it is, i doubt i'd be willing to pay for it now!

Personally speaking, I would like to get more G1 based MPs the most. But I get the most excited for an MP toy that looks to be a substantial improvement, and is of a character design that I like as well. I'd really love an Armada Starscream, as it's one of my favourite Starscream redesigns and he's only had a little justice in the Generations figure! I'm open to any era or any design really, because especially in recent times, they've shown just how much further than can push the design of these things.

I think most of us felt BW Optimus Primal didn't really need an MP figure, or "What could they improve?". But it's clear now, they can improve a lot even on the best toys of the past. And the more they challenge themselves with characters like that, the more they learn for the next figure.

There's just so many other, great character designs they can draw on, I hope they can release something from every era rather than revisiting Prime or some others again and again. MP could go on forever if they can pull it off!

Entirely my personal opinion...

I personally feel that most toys made after G2 stand to benefit far less from being remade as CHUG or MP toys compared to G1 and most G2 figures. And of course the main reason for this is that Beast Wars gave us the Transformers toy Renaissance which has set the standard for which Transformers toys have been made ever since.

I know you said "most toys", but I think if we're to compare them relatively, then it simply comes down to how good the original toy was in the first place, which isn't necessarily tied to the era or line. Something like G1 to MP Soundwave didn't really stand to benefit as much as say G1 to MP Megatron. ROTF to MP Devastator could show substantial improvement

It's an interesting discussion though, i'd like to see which MPs people think are the most substantially improved. You mentioned Cheetor as equally deserving, but i'd have him as one of the most improved! Not to say the original toy was bad for the time though.

Maybe because you're factoring in price, whereas i don't think that's really fair. G1 was a general consumer grade line and so it makes sense to me, to compare it to CHUG etc if anything, but not MP. If there was a collector grade toyline in the 80's, i wonder how much better they could have been back then (and how much pricier!). You're also talking about a loooong time frame where so much has changed. Not a lot else garners that kind of comparison. You wouldn't buy a 4K TV and ask the salesman how it compares value-wise to a CRT of the 80's right? It's kind of irrelevant IMO.

For me, although the MPs are expensive, space is the bigger premium! So, i'm happy to get one really nice figure every few months instead of several cheaper (but sometimes still nice, don't get me wrong) figures. Just for a while, when i was collecting from one line to the next, it really became apparent just how many times i was buying the same character, or very similar designs. MP kind of makes a lot of toys i own (and still like), a bit redundant.

But even something like Henkei Jazz makes the PotP Jazz redundant, and not worth any amount of money to me. Ironically, PotP Jazz' car mode is kind of what I want from the regular lines now - inspired by the past, but not virtually identical. His dollar shop slab-arms in robot mode though... no thanks! I'd be more excited for regular lines if they went back to Armadaverse ethos in terms of character design. That and today's comparatively gimmick-less toys would be a good combination I think!

[GoktimusPrime]

Of course I'm factoring in price. And I take your point about regular consumer toy vs collector grade, but this factor cuts both ways. e.g. Considering that the original Ultra Optimus Primal toy was a general mass release kids' toy it is really an exceptionally fantastic figure. This is why I consider it to be on par with MP Beast Convoy. Yes, MP Beast Convoy is a much more advanced toy, but it's also quadruple the price. MP Beast Convoy is like a luxury sports car whereas the original is like a really nice regular car. You can say that both are just as good as each other given their relative price, and yes, target market etc. Price is the easiest factor for me as it also indicates how much money was allocated to the toy's R&D budget and it gives you a direct indication of dollar value. It's not the sole indicator of a toy's value, but it's a pretty obvious one to see.

And I also agree with what you said about G1 v MP Soundwave, and it also does show just how well made G1 Soundwave was. In relative terms I would absolutely say that G1 and MP Soundwave are on par with each other. Shockwave's another one that's like that too (although unlike G1 Shockwave, I don't have to worry about MP Laserwave's legs getting loose and being unable to support his own body weight, or his hose crumbling). But for the most part, I find that the average G1 CHUG/MP are a marked improvement over their originals. And it's not necessarily to say that the originals were bad but as I said, it was because they were made before the Beast Wars Renaissance.

...and I personally quite like the original Cheetor toy. I thought it was good, even for its time. Reading back the review I wrote about it way back then, the only nitpick I had was that his legs could swing up forwards all the way (i.e. he can't do a King Leonidas "THIS IS SPARTAAAA!" style kick ). Really he can, you just have to swing the groin plate up which you do with toys like Powermaster Optimus Prime. It's a total non-issue to me now, but believe it or not I used to be even nitpickier than I am now! Way to go, 90s me.

[Jellico]

Soundwave highlights one of my big disappointments with the MP version. The batteries on the original were an awesomely innovative method of weapon storage and the failure to copy it was notable.

I think examples like Soundwave, Shockwave, and the beasts have something in common. Fairly limited transformation options. The first iterations nailed what you could do with the altmode pretty well. How many ways can you turn a gorilla into a humanoid robot and retain the original feel?

In comparison the vehicles of G1 could be improved in two directions. More refined (even licensed) alt modes, and vastly more articulated robot modes.

Revisions like CHUG become interesting because for practical purposes they can't license. So CHUG lends itself more to homages and reimaginings.

As noted above later series already have well articulated robots and no licensing issues so the only area of improvement is in that premium feel. Paint, ratchets, more parts, and cleaner lines, etc.

Is that enough? Probably. But not now. At the moment they are too close to the originals in quality. But in 10 years time toy design will have moved further on and the relevant children will be of an age where they want their old toys but with that premium collector's feel.

[drifand]

I only know one thing, it is time for the MP line to end.

That is my overall feeling of it. Good in many ways, save me a lot of money.
As for normal toy line, I have not bothered with it.

TT toys quality have not been on par to the toys I do collect. and I have decided to quit thanks to certain retailer as well.
I will not discuss about quality or premium to TT toys and I felt there isn't much. When you see people justifying and allowing compromised quality, I knew this was it there and then.

I hate to say it but the 3p has done a "what is the MP line is supposed to be" and sorry to say they did very well in many areas and even exceed expectations.

[BigTransformerTrev]

looking at pics of MP Dinobot, yeah, it looks really fantastic.

Combiner Wars Armada Megatron is definitely better than the original.

Gotta disagree with both these comments. Dinobot looks bollocks in Dino-mode - like the feteus didn’t form properly in the egg. Though given the excitement over this figure I’m clearly in the minority holding this opinion.

Armada Megs has a LOT of play value. Came with the Leader-1 min-con that could make missile racks flip out, go up the side ramp and into the little jail etc. then on top of that the whole tank turret could rotate, it could fire missiles, in robot mode he could flick out a knife. Plus he could carry tons of Minicons or combine with Tidal Wave. Awesome amount of features! The new version had basically none of that. No way is the newer one better.

I only know one thing, it is time for the MP line to end.

That is my overall feeling of it. Good in many ways, save me a lot of money.
As for normal toy line, I have not bothered with it.

Out of interest - what DO you like about TF’s if you don’t like the toys or movies? The cartons & comics?

[drifand]

Out of interest - what DO you like about TF’s if you don’t like the toys or movies? The cartons & comics?[/QUOTE]

G1 cartoon.
For Toys, I have lean towards Fan Toys, not all of them, but the latest few as it seems to cater to what I am expecting. When you actually have fun from a product and compare it, you know the differences. But I am down with only Arcee to purchase and I am really quite done. I had never dream of getting these much TFs even to begin with.

I only just lost interest of the MP line lately, hence why I am quitting. Unless TT does a Jazz, I am just observing on the side lines for TT.

The topic if you observe, people are stating the normal line and MP line arein discussion of the extra premium added. But if we know TT the premium is only in engineering, everything else is being cut corners. There are only a handful of mps that TT has wowed me over these few years.

[BigTransformerTrev]

The topic if you observe, people are stating the normal line and MP line arein discussion of the extra premium added.

Err.... I know the topic of the thread, but I have zero idea what that sentence means

Cheers for the clarification of what you enjoy about TFs.

[kurdt_the_goat]

Of course I'm factoring in price. And I take your point about regular consumer toy vs collector grade, but this factor cuts both ways. e.g. Considering that the original Ultra Optimus Primal toy was a general mass release kids' toy it is really an exceptionally fantastic figure. This is why I consider it to be on par with MP Beast Convoy. Yes, MP Beast Convoy is a much more advanced toy, but it's also quadruple the price. MP Beast Convoy is like a luxury sports car whereas the original is like a really nice regular car. You can say that both are just as good as each other given their relative price, and yes, target market etc. Price is the easiest factor for me as it also indicates how much money was allocated to the toy's R&D budget and it gives you a direct indication of dollar value. It's not the sole indicator of a toy's value, but it's a pretty obvious one to see.

I don't want to dwell on the point, but maybe "quadruple the price" isn't that fair though. I guess you're remembering from childhood or you found the original Ultra's AU price? But 3 years ago they re-released it for 6500Y, which puts it around half as expensive as MP Beast Convoy at 12000Y. That's a fairer comparison I think.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

It's kind of hard to see most of Animated or Prime benefiting much from a Masterpiece treatment. Apart from maybe Lugnut or Knockout.
Beast Wars depends on the toy/character IMO. I only have Cheetor, not interested in Optimus Primal because I'm happy with the Transmetal one. I'll skip on Dinobot too, though I do think it looks nice - I just like the Transmetal 2 design better, and like Dinobot as a villain for the Odieverse. But damn if TM2 Dinobot couldn't do with a better toy. Rampage and Depth Charge are fine as is, but I could really go a TM2 Megatron - in fact it's my Number 1 most-wanted MP, not that I think we'll ever get one. Voyager Rhinox is good enough for me, but I would probably upgrade to an MP if/when they make an MP Rhinox. I'd also be all over an MP Beast Wars Ravage.

About the only 'really good' toy I would like to see an MP of is G2 Laser Prime/Black Convoy/RiD Scourge. The toy still holds up just fine, but it's such a nice, solid design with good play- and display options that I reckon it could make for a good Masterpiece as well.

[GoktimusPrime]

Trev: I know what you mean about Dinobot being a real mess of a toy, but I think a lot of it was inevitable considering the source materials that they're working from. It's just a nightmare concept trying to make a slavishly cartoon-accurate Dinobot toy. They could do better, but then the toy would be even dearer than it already is. I suspect that this is about as good as it gets at its already really expensive price point. :/ I have zero interest in getting this toy either way so it's a moot issue for me.

Soundwave highlights one of my big disappointments with the MP version. The batteries on the original were an awesomely innovative method of weapon storage and the failure to copy it was notable.

A fair point, and I would agree with what you say about the lack of weapons becoming batteries. Another weird point is the scale of the cassettes to the player. Although MP Soundwave is much larger than G1 Soundwave, the size of his cassette storage is the same width and height. Which is great because it means that G1 cassettes can fit inside MP Soundwave (just today I was showing a friend how my G1 Ratbat can fit inside MP Soundwave). But the downside is that in cassette player mode, the door looks way too small. But I can easily forgive it because I think that the cross-compatibility between the MP and G1 Cassettes is damn awesome. Like how MP Frumble's piledriver arms can fit on G1 Frumble's arms.

Is that enough? Probably. But not now. At the moment they are too close to the originals in quality. But in 10 years time toy design will have moved further on and the relevant children will be of an age where they want their old toys but with that premium collector's feel.

Yep, I can totally understand that too. I have no objection towards TakaraTOMY making post-G2 toys as MPs or CHUGs. I think it's great. But it just doesn't personally interest me, and I'll admit that a large part of it is because those lines weren't part of my childhood. G1 was my childhood. But that doesn't mean that I have anything against TakTOM making MP or CHUG toys of BW, Armada, Bayformers etc. I'm not going to be one of those party poopers who demands that HasTak only make toys that I'm interested in regardless of what the rest of the fandom may like.

I don't want to dwell on the point, but maybe "quadruple the price" isn't that fair though. I guess you're remembering from childhood or you found the original Ultra's AU price? But 3 years ago they re-released it for 6500Y, which puts it around half as expensive as MP Beast Convoy at 12000Y. That's a fairer comparison I think.

Fair point. I didn't think about adjusting for inflation while posting at 12:32am. #meaculpa
But yeah, that reissue price is also similar to our local RRP for more recent Ultra Class toys which would be $70. And yes, that would indeed be about half the price of MP Beast Convoy.

It's kind of hard to see most of Animated or Prime benefiting much from a Masterpiece treatment. Apart from maybe Lugnut or Knockout.

Maybe not MP but some of them might benefit from CHUG(esque) upgrades. Take TF2010 Lugnut and Lockdown for example. A massive improvements over the originals, and since both are the same size/price point as their originals we can make an easy direct comparison in terms of budget, price and value for money. Bumblebee and Optimus Prime are others that could benefit from better toys IMHO, but yeah, most Animated toys were pretty well made.

About the only 'really good' toy I would like to see an MP of is G2 Laser Prime/Black Convoy/RiD Scourge. The toy still holds up just fine, but it's such a nice, solid design with good play- and display options that I reckon it could make for a good Masterpiece as well.

I reckon those toys would end up being like MP Soundwave, Shockwave etc. -- they'd be nice, but in relative terms about on par with their originals. IMO Laser Optimus Prime remained the uncontested best Optimus Prime toy ever made until 2007... that's a good 12 year reign as the #1 OP toy.