Discussion of Collection counting methods

[GoktimusPrime]

hmmm found the unicron link -> http://www.angelfire.com/mech/jinsao...s/Unicron.html

hmmmm... this is going to be debatable in the UCM since the original form is not even a "Transformer" as such

According to Article01 (and more importantly, the law!) they don't count because customs are not officially licensed by HasTak. When it comes to the legality of customs, if it's an original character/creation that's significantly different (>10%?) from the original toy then it counts as your own original creation. But the fact that it was created without licence means that it does not legally classify as a Transformer product.

What becomes more of a legal 'no-no' is when you create customs based on characters already owned by HasTak, like Classics Runamuck - although HasTak have never made a Classics Runamuck, the fact is that the Runamuck character, name and likeness is legal intellectual property of HasTak and HasTak can sue you if you tried to sell such customs. I've personally never heard of them taking legal action against anyone who's done so, but I have heard and seen auctions for such customs on eBay getting shut down because they infringe eBay user Terms of Service (as they are a copyright infringement).

[iceburn]

Bah. I'll count your collection as part of mine since when you become all old and senile and unable to transform your TFs, they'll all be mine.

Where's your will STL??? haha, so that i can count yours as part of my collection now

[Saintly]

According to Article01 (and more importantly, the law!) they don't count because customs are not officially licensed by HasTak. When it comes to the legality of customs, if it's an original character/creation that's significantly different (>10%?) from the original toy then it counts as your own original creation. But the fact that it was created without licence means that it does not legally classify as a Transformer product.

What becomes more of a legal 'no-no' is when you create customs based on characters already owned by HasTak, like Classics Runamuck - although HasTak have never made a Classics Runamuck, the fact is that the Runamuck character, name and likeness is legal intellectual property of HasTak and HasTak can sue you if you tried to sell such customs. I've personally never heard of them taking legal action against anyone who's done so, but I have heard and seen auctions for such customs on eBay getting shut down because they infringe eBay user Terms of Service (as they are a copyright infringement).

Then I guess if HasTak wants to, they could essentially shutdown the whole C.A.S.E network... after that, we're going to hear alot of screaming TF'ers bashing down the HasTak corporate office doors

[jaydisc]

That is true. Article01 is the only article that wasn't decided by popular vote because it is a legal fact. Having said that, it is a very broad definition... by this definition, Transformers DVDs, comic books, bedsheets, Zippo lighters, dinner plates, drinking glasses/cups, cards, board games, video/computer games, bags and undies would count too.

Right after I copied that, I immediately wanted to correct it to reflect:

Any product created under licence from Hasbro Inc. and/or Takara(Tomy) Co., Ltd as a "Transformer".

So you don't count Action Masters? (o_O) Action Masters were a prominent part of the late G1 toy line, and they also feature in G1 continuity (and arguably in early G2 continuity too - when Megatron journeyed to Transcaparthia he had been restored to life by Nucleon, although he still retained the ablity to transform, unlike his AM toy).

ActionMasters seem to be the most prominently requested exception to rule 2. My first opinion is to exclude them. Simply put, they don't transform. However, they do come with a transforming accessory, or arguable are the accessory to a transforming vehicle (e.g. Jazz's skateboard).

I would like someone who is for the inclusion of ActionMasters to specifically detail what makes them different from say a Robot Hero or a Robot Replica.

Additionally, I think one must also consider intent. Robot Heros and Replicas are clearly meant to fill a different niche of the market. They are more display pieces and not toys or action figures. This is seemingly not the case with ActionMasters.

And would you count Happy Meal toys and model kits that can transform, like say Transmetal Dinobot?

I'm not too familiar with the toy, but give it the simple litmus test:

1. Was it a licensed Transformer(tm)
2. Did it transform?

After some very quick research, the answer seems to be yes for both, so yes I would count it.

I think the rationale is that Nebulans, Pretender shells and Action Master partners are not meaningful Transformer action figures on their own. If you owned Krunk but not Snapdragon, you couldn't really play with that toy as a fully functioning Transformer - Krunk transforms from a Nebulan into Snapdragon's head. Without Snapdragon, he's pretty useless as a Transformer toy. What would you do with Skullgrin's shell if all you had was the shell? Would you count Action Master Jazz's Turboboard as a separate Transformer?

I think again we have to look at intent. Headmasters, Targetmasters and Pretenders, at least to me, are clearly sold as one Transformer and act as one Transformer. Arguing that a piece of one of these should be counted separately is silly and akin to saying that Classics Optimus Prime's smokestacks should count separately.

Now say if you had regular Chromedome and TF Jr. Chromedome. Both can transform - in almost the same way. Both their heads can detach and transform into a smaller Master Robot/Nebulan - both even have a tech specs meter in their chests! Granted that TF Jr Chromedome is a smaller and simpler version of regular Chromedome, he is still a meaningful and functioning Transformer action figure in his own right. Ditto Choro Q Megatron. He transforms from a Walther P-38 to robot and back. Sure, both modes are super-deformed and the gun mode rolls with an oh-so-cute pull-back motor - but it is still a meaningful Transformer in its own right.

Again, ask yourself the two simple questions. In both of your above examples, the answer is yes.

Customs

As much as I love Customs and would display them with my TFs, I don't think they can be counted in any universally accepted system as the definition and range of customs is so broad. I could imagine a whole other set of 18 articles defining what makes an acceptable custom and what does not. And, quite simply put, to not be hypocritical, it fails the simple 2 question test.

[TheDirtyDigger]

Customs

As much as I love Customs and would display them with my TFs, I don't think they can be counted in any universally accepted system as the definition and range of customs is so broad. I could imagine a whole other set of 18 articles defining what makes an acceptable custom and what does not. And, quite simply put, to not be hypocritical, it fails the simple 2 question test.

Hell...I love customs so much I've now decided to count them twice.

[jaydisc]

Hell...I love customs so much I've now decided to count them twice.

How about you get to count every piece of a custom that came from a different Transformer?

[Paulbot]

ActionMasters seem to be the most prominently requested exception to rule 2. My first opinion is to exclude them. Simply put, they don't transform. However, they do come with a transforming accessory, or arguable are the accessory to a transforming vehicle (e.g. Jazz's skateboard).

I would like someone who is for the inclusion of ActionMasters to specifically detail what makes them different from say a Robot Hero or a Robot Replica.

Additionally, I think one must also consider intent. Robot Heros and Replicas are clearly meant to fill a different niche of the market. They are more display pieces and not toys or action figures. This is seemingly not the case with ActionMasters.

Action Masters were the evolution of the Transformers toyline. They weren't a subline or tie-in, these were the main line Transformers action figures.

It was backed up by the fiction both in the comics, commercials and on the toy boxes that there were Transformers who had lost the ability to transform.

Robot Heroes and Replicas on the otherhand are statue versions of characters that should be able to transform.

[GoktimusPrime]

Paulbot has explained it quite well - as you said jaydisc, one must look at the intent. Action Masters were intended to be part of the mainstream toyline and new incarnations of those characters.

Robot Heroes Optimus Prime is simply a non-transformable figurine that represents the Optimus Prime character who can transform - thus the rationale that it doesn't count as a Transformer action figure. Action Master Optimus Prime on the other hand, is the final incarnation of Optimus Prime in the Anglophone G1 continuity!

In the toy continuity, it was explained that Optimus Prime travelled through a black hole in search of a new fuel source (hence the "Nucleon Quest Convoy" toy) and returned with the discovery of Nucleon which replaced Energon as the new fuel source for Transformers. But they eventually discoverd that Nucleon made them lose the ability to transform, so they made new weapons/vehicles for themselves that could transform to compensate.

Nucleon Quest Convoy

Apparently going through a black hole made PM Prime turn black.

In the Marvel Comics, many Transformers had been slain by Starscream during the Underbase saga, and although Grimlock, Jazz and Bumblebee (and Starscream) had been revived as Classic Pretenders by Ratchet, Grimlock desperately wanted his fellow Dinobots to be restored as well. With Ratchet presumed KIA he had to find another way to bring them back to life. He found out about some miracle energy source on a planet called Hydrus Four. He sought permission from PM Optimus Prime to go there and retrieve this energy, but Prime denied his request. So naturally Grimlock defied Prime's orders and took the Ark to Hydrus Four where he tested the Nucleon on himself first - discovering that it instantly made him feel more powerful and more alive - and then used it to revive his Dinobots. The Dinobots then pumped every stasis pod aboard the Ark with Nucleon. Wheee. The Nucleon eventually started locking up some of Grimlock's joints - giving him symptoms similar to arthritis - and he eventually went into a chrysalis stage. After bursting from this chrysalis, Grimlock had evolved into a full Action Master where he was immensely more powerful in robot mode, but had utterly lost the ability to transform into Dinobot mode. Grimlock began to fear that when the other Dinobots would eventually go through the same stage, whether they would thank or curse him for using Nucleon to restore them... but the G1 series was axed before this question could be answered. Other Action Master characters we saw in G1 included Krok (Bludgeon's 2nd in command) and Optimus Prime, who was not made into an Action Master by Nucleon, but by the Last Autobot who created AM Prime with Hi-Q (whose mind had merged with that of the late Powermaster Optimus Prime).

Action Master Grimlock beats the crap out of Fangry


Action Master Optimus Prime


Action Master Krok was Bludgeon's 2nd in command of the Decepticons


Action Master Banzaitron - a lethal assassin ("Cybertron Chronicles")

[liegeprime]

Other Action Master characters we saw in G1 included Krok (Bludgeon's 2nd in command) and Optimus Prime, who was not made into an Action Master by Nucleon, but by the Last Autobot who created AM Prime with Hi-Q (whose mind had merged with that of the late Powermaster Optimus Prime).

Sorry to digress, but I was having a hard time with this part of the Marvel story continuity actually... Since the last autobot reassembled Prime ( as shown in the comics illustration) with the core as Hi-Q ( and organic-cyborg being) then wouldnt that robotization ( if there's such a word) process effectively kill Hi-Q altogether and being semi organic wouldnt that mean that we have, if the series continued a rotting organic core in prime ( instead of a matrix)..... ewwwww..prime smells like a dead rat then, also, shouldn't that be a charge for murder..... things that should have been addressed hehehehe... but again this is just a random digressing rant... carry on....

[GoktimusPrime]

...yeah, good luck getting the Last Autobot to a courthouse.

I made a fan comic once when I was a kid where it showed Hi-Q still living inside Action Master Optimus Prime kinda like his 'heart'. Okay, lame concept, but it scored top marks (and an award) for my school art major project!

My current theory is that Ultra Magnus ate Hi-Q... just like how he ate Sparkplug (which is why you never see him in late G1 you see!)

"Guilty!"