Hypothetical - Factions Re-Imagined

[Paulbot]

I'd have made the original 1984 line more balanced kind of like a modern assortment with several of each side in each size class. Many of the swapped names would have different names but the same decos. I'd add in a second new deco like Skywarp or ditch Skywarp.

Autobot Tapes
Frenzy and Buzzsaw

Autobot Mini Vehicles
Bumblebee
Gears
Windcharger

Autobot Cars
Ratchet
Prowl
Sideswipe
Mirage
Jazz
Wheeljack

Autobot Jet
Thundercracker
kinda-Ramjet (a white seeker but with the original wings)

Autobot Commander
Optimus Prime

vs

Decepticon Tapes
Rumble and Ravage

Decepticon Mini Vehicles
Brawn
Cliffjumper
Huffer

Decepticon Cars
Ironhide
Bluestreak
Sunstreaker (red deco)
Hound
Trailbreaker

Decepticon Jet
Starscream
Skywarp

Decepticon Communicator
Soundwave and Laserbeak

Decepticon Leader
Megatron

[BigTransformerTrev]

Maybe would interesting to see every G1 toy from both the G1 Hasbro and Takara toylines done with all the Earth Modes being Autobots as ‘Robots in Disguise’ in order to protect the planet without causing panic, and all the toys with Cybertronian/Giant Metal Animal modes being Decepticons who are based on the moon or something and keep trying to invade.

Could make things interesting - for instance the Constructicons, Combaticons & Stunticons would be Autobots and the Technobots, Dinobots and Monsterbots would be Decepticons

[Deonasis]

Great thread idea. Something to think a bit more about..

[BigTransformerTrev]

Maybe would interesting to see every G1 toy from both the G1 Hasbro and Takara toylines done with all the Earth Modes being Autobots as ‘Robots in Disguise’ in order to protect the planet without causing panic, and all the toys with Cybertronian/Giant Metal Animal modes being Decepticons who are based on the moon or something and keep trying to invade.

Actually, thinking about it more it would cause a lot of faction changes! Even among just the Hasbro G1/G2 universe:

Now Autobots
*Megatron
*Soundwave & the cassettes
*The Seekers
*The Reflector Trio
*Constructicons
*Stunticons
*Combaticons
*Triggercons
*Double Targetmasters
*Decepticon Triple Changers
*Clench
*Dirt Bag
*Exhaust

Now Decepticons
*Rodimus Prime
*Dinobots
*Technobots
*Monsterbots
*Large Headmasters
*Targetmasters
*Autobot Clones
*Jumpstarters
*Powerdashers
*Omega Supreme
*Fortress Maximus
*Metroplex
*Springer
*Cosmos
*Jetfire
*Sky Lynx
*Windmill

Probably lots more but that's all that comes to mind right now

Quite the double duo leaders on either side: Optimus & Megatron vs Rodimus & Galvatron, like it was meant to be

Great thread idea. Something to think a bit more about..

Yeah, a very thought-provoking thread - nice one Dan

[GoktimusPrime]

Hasbro have obviously gone with the thematic product POV where it was initially all the automobiles as the good guys and the military vehicles and hardware as baddies. They repeated this with Beast Wars where it was warm blooded goodies vs cold* blooded baddies. If I wanted to go with this kind of thematic product approach then I wouldn't change anything with Year 1 and if anything maybe rearrange the subsequent years to maintain consistency. So Constructicons would be Autobots (probably keep their Diaclone colours).

I would also release all of the Macross Valkyries plus Dorvack Gazette Oberon (Whirl) together as a single sub-group (Deluxe Decepticons). This would help flesh out the Decepticon ranks and compensate for the loss of a gestalt. Mind you, my idea would be far more expensive than what Hasbro actually did! As awesome as having all of the Valkyries as Transformers would be, few kids would be able to afford to complete the set, unlike the inexpensive Constructicons which were cheap and easy to collect the whole set. I would include other smaller and cheaper military vehicles as Decepticons, so obviously Powerglide and Warpath would be shifted over as Decepticons. Oh, and if I were a Takara exec I would release the revolver Gun Robo as a Decepticon.

Deluxe Decepticons


Okay - now that's if I were approaching it from a thematic product POV. The other approach I could take is what I might call the "action figure ethics" approach, and by this I mean deliberately doing the opposite of the product approach in order to mix things up to avoid any even suggestion of racism in the product line. What do I mean by racism? There's a thing in education that we call the Hidden Curriculum, which are messages or lessons conveyed in literature that were not intended by the author, hence why it's "hidden." To avoid this in the toyline I would complete ignore trying to build a theme where automobiles are goodies and jets are baddies. I would mix it up. Have good and evil cars as well as good and evil jets. Now of course, Transformers did do this pretty quickly starting from the 2nd Year with heroic jets like Jetfire, Cosmos, Omega Supreme and Powergliiiiiiide. And they also had evil automobiles like the Constructicons. Subsequent years would mix it up even more -- Aerialbots, Stunticons, Battlechargers, Triple Changers etc. Even having devices as baddies was soon dropped as we got Blaster and the Autobot Cassettes. So honestly, it's not too different from what we actually got, the only difference is that I would've started it in 1984, not 1985. Heck, in Europe Jetfire was the first Autobot commander, not Optimus Prime (due to conflicting legal issues with Diaclone Battle Convoy which was still licensed to Joustra in EU at the time). So European fans were used to having a jet Autobot as leader from very early on. But basically kids wouldn't see cars or military vehicles etc. as being good or evil -- there would be all kinds of alt modes on either side which shows that both good and bad people come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and that you can't just assume that one type is collectively any better or worse than another.

Year 1


To further enforce this in the G1 cartoon I would insist that Sunbow avoid giving heroic and evil eye colours. I'd make it more like the Beast Wars cartoon where characters on both sides can have any eye colour. You aren't born good or evil, you choose to be. Heck, I might be so bold as to do something that Hasbro never did - throw in a purple Autobot! Not a secret double spy - just a regular heroic Autobot who happens to be purple.

[Dan]

Deonasis

Thanks. What made me think of it was reading TF Wiki and discovering, for instance, that in the development stage the Predacons might have become ‘Anibots’, and so on.

Trev

The ‘considerate and disguised’ versus ‘blatant invaders’ concept is cool, placing ethics and strategy at the centre of the story, and resulting in lots of surprising re-alignments. The ‘deceptive’ part of the name ‘Decepticon’ would no longer make sense, but inventing different names is never a problem. What does ‘Destron’ mean anyway?

Goktimus

The ‘hidden curriculum’ of the 1984 Transformers did make an impression on youthful me, with the evil side as military and surveillance, and the good side as basically civilians resisting oppression. That may have played into the hands of my parents, who had anti-authority tendencies.

But Transformers moved away from that pretty quickly (with some exceptions like Protectobots and Combaticons). Change was probably for the best, as it is more interesting to mix things up and, as you say, less likely to get us thinking too rigidly about identity.

Still, it influences how I look at Transformers, and as such I was a bit rankled by the new Protectobot, Rook, as I felt that armoured vehicles like that shift the image of the police from emergency service to paramilitary.

You mention the Beast Wars distinction of warm versus cold blooded. That reminds me of something that annoyed me even in youth – why did warm-blooded G1 Ratbat have to be a Decepticon just because horror movies tell us bats are ‘eeeeeevil’? I imagined him as a companion for Blaster, giving the Autobots a purple winged spy, and replacing Ramhorn, who I felt was too bulky a beast to be a cassette (admittedly, I have opinions on cassettes - I feel that Buzzsaw was superfluous, and would have rather seen Soundwave packaged with the Auto-Scout).

Another way of factionalizing beasts would be carnivores versus herbivores. It seemed odd to me when the Zoids toys were factionalized, with the good leader a T-Rex and the evil leader a Triceratops. I would have reversed that!

Paulbot

A balanced mix involving cross-faction categories seems like a cool way to go. Apart from anything else, it would give kids access to both factions at all price-points, and result in less over-balanced collections dominated by Autobots. And there are plenty of ways discussed here of assigning to factions.

Another, rather subjective method I’d suggest would be to ask who looks stereotypically good or evil. Bumblebee has a mean face. Tracks looks mean all over. Starscream has rather ‘patriotic’ colours (like those red-and-blue Autobots who are too many to mention). Razorclaw is just too cute to be evil, and so on.

Dirge

Brestforce toys also look a bit too cute to be Decepticons.

[Paulbot]

Another, rather subjective method I’d suggest would be to ask who looks stereotypically good or evil. Bumblebee has a mean face. Tracks looks mean all over. Starscream has rather ‘patriotic’ colours (like those red-and-blue Autobots who are too many to mention). Razorclaw is just too cute to be evil, and so on.

I had this in mind - but 35 years of Autobot propaganda means I don't think of Bumblebee as looking evil! I thought he, Gears and Windhcharger seemed the less like bad guys of the six. Then split the tapes and jets by the lighter colours ones being good, the dark ones being evil. The Autobot cars are the rescue vehicles and racing cars - the rest the bad guys.

[FatalityPitt]

Interesting question/thread topic.

Hmm, it's a bit challenging for me to answer because I can't really imagine G1 being any other way The alignments and their compositions always made perfect sense to me because in 1984, all the jets were Decepticons and all the cars were Autobots. Jets trump cars in terms of size and power, so that makes the Autobots out as the underdogs while the Decepticons are the big imposing threats. Megatron turned into a gun, and there's no way a gun transformer could be seen as a good guy (let alone a WWII Nazi-German one). Soundwave would look out of place among the Autobot cars, and also the fact that he's an evil robot that turns into a walkman that could be in your house right now makes him more impactful as a villain.

Keeping in spirit of the thread, I'd probably make Sunstreaker and Omega Supreme into Decepticons, the Constructicons into Autobots, and Metroplex into a faction-less transformer; and you'll understand why by the end of this post...

If I re-imagined G1 Transformers without knowing anything about them (putting myself in Bud Budiansky's shoes), I would have given the characters different roles like such:

Autobots:
Windcharger - Main character/narrator of the story. Mainly because he seems the most "normal-looking" Autobot (a red car with a simple transformation).
Prowl - Autobot Leader, because he turns into a police car, and police officers are symbols of authority who are generally suppose to be trustworthy and protective.
Optimus Prime - The Powerhouse/Living Weapon/Strongman of the Autobots.
Mirage - I would have given him Blurr's personality because he's an F1 car.
Sunstreaker - It would be the white police car version of Sunstreaker instead of the yellow one, and he would have been Prowl's second-in-command... who is actually a DECEPTICON SPY/mole/corrupt cop. He'd be like the Starscream to Prowl's Megatron.

Decepticons:
Mostly the same, except Megatron would be more like an underworld mob boss than a tyrannical warlord (gangster is opposite of cop, i.e. Prowl), and the seekers would have been mindless brutes.

Omega Supreme would be a Decepticon because he's the one character who looks like he could beat Optimus Prime (the "Living Super-Weapon" of the Autobots). The Constructicons would be re-imagined as Autobot builders and engineers who are pacifists. Metroplex (who would appear later in the series) would not be an Autobot nor Decepticon, but the God-king/ruler of Cybertron.

Yeah, like I said, it's a bit hard for me to imagine G1 as anything other.

[GoktimusPrime]

What does ‘Destron’ mean anyway?

It's the Japanese term for Decepticons and Predacons up until 2007 when Takara started using the Anglophone term "Decepticon" (beginning with the Japanese translations of Bayformers).

The ‘hidden curriculum’ of the 1984 Transformers did make an impression on youthful me, with the evil side as military and surveillance, and the good side as basically civilians resisting oppression. That may have played into the hands of my parents, who had anti-authority tendencies.

Hhmmm... even in G1 who was the authority shifted. In the G1 comics the Autobots were originally the authorities on Cybertron until Megatron led the Decepticons to conquer each Autobot city-state except for Iacon. At the behest of Councillor Xaaron, Supreme Chancellor Traachon vetoed himself out of office, allowing Commander Optimus Prime to gain supreme executive command over all Autobot forces. This allowed Optimus Prime to mobilise the Autobots without needing permission from the Council and he was no longer held back -- and this in turn led to the Autobots not only successfully defending Iacon, but also liberating the other city-states from Decepticon occupation. But something that the IDW comics have touched upon is that this level of supreme executive command in the hands of a Prime makes them a tyrant, and in the eyes of some, a practical god (absolute power corrupts absolutely). We know that in the IDW universe that Megatron was initially more like Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. in that he believed in peaceful non-resistance and demonstration to achieve equality for the masses who suffered oppression under the Cybertronian regime. Other species saw how brutal the oppression was among the Transformers and had come to mockingly refer to them as "automated robots," or "Auto-Bots" for short. This came to be used as an insult for those who supported the regime.

Back to the G1 Marvel universe and we know that power shifted quickly after Optimus Prime's crew left Cybertron aboard the Ark (and likewise Megatron's 'Cons aboard the Nemesis). The Autobot Council reformed itself but was brutally executed by the Decepticon Warlord Trannis (except for the Council's sole survivor, Xaaron). Trannis was then overthrown by Straxus and Xaaron went all John Connor and became leader of the Autobot underground resistance. The Decepticons ruled Cybertron from their capital of Darkmount. In the G1 Sunbow cartoon we know that the Autobots initially ruled during the Golden Age and it was Megatron who led the Decepticon uprising. Eventually neither side gained control and Cybertron was nearly depleted of fuel, forcing Optimus Prime and his Autobots to seek a new source of energy, followed closely by Megatron's Decepticons and thus the war came to Earth. In Megatron's absence Shockwave was left in charge... over a pretty dead and barren world. He didn't seem to do much other than... shoot at corners? Later the cartoon showed us that Alpha Trion was leading an underground resistance of female Autobots who, uh... did hit-and-run fuel heists. Nothing significant like Xaaron's resistance who had missions like Operation: Volcano and attempted to destroy the Decepticon Space Bridge etc. Oh, and Xaaron's resistance had the Wreckers. Alpha Trion's elite squad (his only squad?) couldn't even sneak out of a building without tripping the alarm.

Still, it influences how I look at Transformers, and as such I was a bit rankled by the new Protectobot, Rook, as I felt that armoured vehicles like that shift the image of the police from emergency service to paramilitary.

Paramilitary police can still be considered emergency rescue, such as if there's a hostage crisis. These police are far more likely to stop acts of terror than outlawing imitation firearms (or the theatrics of airport security). Most terrorist plots are thwarted by special police before the bad guys can even execute their plans. So yeah, while Groove and Streetwise are your regular civilian police, Rook is the cop who stops buildings from being blown up before it ever happens and you'll never hear about it. He's the unsung hero.

(admittedly, I have opinions on cassettes - I feel that Buzzsaw was superfluous, and would have rather seen Soundwave packaged with the Auto-Scout).

The Auto-Scout toy that we saw in the G1 cartoon never existed as a Microman toy, and obviously the first year of Transformers was about Hasbro trying to make as much money as possible while investing as little as possible. There were no new moulds in the first year, and even the 2nd year had very few (if any - it's possible that the new Autobot Mini-Vehicles were unused designs from Microman).

I suppose the alternative would be to include the Battle Bike with Soundwave, but a rider-less motorcycle is, quite frankly, a really lame robot mode and hard to pass off as a sentient 'bot to kids. Yeah, I know that they actually did this with Grand Slam and Raindance... and let's face it, that was lame! Do they have a robot mode or 2 alt modes? We all hated on Mutant Beasts for lacking a robot mode. The only reason I even got Grand Slam and Raindance was because of their pretty forgettable role in the Underbase Saga (if you're opening a new tab/window to Google it, then it just proves my point about how forgettable they were ).

Another way of factionalizing beasts would be carnivores versus herbivores. It seemed odd to me when the Zoids toys were factionalized, with the good leader a T-Rex and the evil leader a Triceratops. I would have reversed that!

Here's the tricky thing, and this is just looking at the first year alone...

Herbivores
Rhinox

Carnivores
Terrorsaur
Snapper
Optimus Primal (bat)
Megatron (croc)
Megatron (T-Rex)
Dinobot
Cheetor
Wolfang
Blackarachnia
Buzz Saw
Tigatron
Polar Claw
Scorponok
Tarantulas
Waspinator

Yeah, one herbivore against fifteen carnivores! Where are the rest? Well, we would also have a third faction...

Omnivores
Iguanus
Rattrap
Razorbeast
Armordillo
Insecticon
Optimus Primal (gorilla)

6 omnivores. Even you lumped all the non-carnivores together, they would still be outnumbered more than 2:1!

One really cool thing about Beast Wars was how they made the goodies and baddies are evenly split. Looking at the first year alone we can see that straight out of the gate, Beast Wars gave us 11 Maximals vs 11 Predacons. A perfect 50:50 split of goodies and baddies. And we know that Takara released their Beast Wars toys either individually or in Versus Sets. A far cry from the first year of G1 which gave us 18 Autobots vs 10 Decepticons! The Beast Wars cartoon never had to resort to random repaints of characters to flesh out the vastly outnumbered bad guy ranks. We didn't see every colour of the rainbow repaints of Terrorsaur as nameless generic Preds. For every Maximal there was a Predacon. If HasTak were to release all of the Season 1 Beast Wars TFs as CHUG and MP figures then we would see an even split of Maxies and Preds. Yet with G1 we know that there are way more Autobot MPs then Decepticons. Takara have done all of the first year Decepticons as MPs -- they finished that about 5 years ago with the release of MP Soundwave and the Cassettes. TakaraTOMY may release new versions of these first year 'Cons (as they've already done with MP36), but the fact is that the characters are all done. We still don't have MPs of:
Brawn
Cliffjumper
Gears
Hound
Huffer
Jazz
Mirage
Trailbreaker
Windcharger
So while all the Decepticons have been done, there are still 9^8 Autobots remaining. And in TakaraTOMY's defence, the remaining Autobots are relatively harder and costlier to do since they're all new moulds. In terms of number of moulds we only had SIX Decepticons (gun, walkman, robot cassette, condor cassette, jaguar cassette & jet). Except for the Datsun Fairladies and Nissan Cherries, none of the Autobots are repaints. You could argue that parts of Bumblebee could be reused for Cliffjumper, but it'd be less than what some people might think because I reckon if Porsche ever does come to the table and allow HasTak to purchase the vehicle licence, a condition of that licence would be a realistically scaled vehicle mode, not a super-deformed Penny Racer style car. We've already seen this with MP Bumblebee who is a realistically proportioned VW Beetle, not a cartoon-accurately super deformed punch buggy.

But yeah, with Beast Wars I think it was "warm and fuzzies" vs "creepy creatures." I suppose 'warm bloods' vs 'cold bloods' more in a metaphoric sense rather a biological one. It gets even more confusing considering that the bloodedness of dinosaurs is still a contentious issue with paleontologists - some believe that they were endothermic (warm blooded) while others believe that they were ectothermic (cold blooded), but yet others think that they might have been mesothermic (warm and cold blooded!) Mind you, the endothermic and mesothermic hypotheses are more recent and weren't around in the 1990s when Beast Wars came out - so as far as they were concerned, dinosaurs were ectotherms. This is also why I don't blame Hasbro (well, Kenner) for not giving Dinobot feathers. It simply wasn't known at the time. Although other parts of Dinobot's raptor mode isn't accurate, and his massive size in the cartoon is grossly inaccurate... but you can blame Jurassic Park for that. Dinobot is based on JP's raptor rather than the real one - and JP have admitted that their raptor is based more on Deinonychus because it just looks cooler on screen than the tiny actual velociraptors, but they gave Deinonychus velociraptor's name because it just sounds so awesome. Seriously... the first time I watched JP and heard the name "velociraptor," was like, "Wwwwhhhooooaaaa!"

[Dan]

Paulbot

Those 35 years of conditioning are difficult to get passed, but we all seem to be doing a pretty good job of it.

Your system is pretty comprehensive. It’s also interesting that some of your new Decepticons, like Ironhide and Brawn, had a tendency to act like bastards, even as Autobots.

An evil VW beetle character might work better if it were given a different colour. Something like purple with pink ‘go-faster’ flames. Bumber could always be the cute yellow character.

FatalityPitt

I like the underdog aspect of Autobots. Even now I try to get aircraft Decepticons that are bigger than car Autobots, but it’s quite difficult to do with the Generations line.

I’d agree to a Nazi-made handgun as being evil, but what if that gun has Man From UNCLE extensions?

I always found Windcharger underwhelming, but it’s amazing what a cool personality can do for a toy, and having him as the POV character might have been interesting.

I like the idea of Prowl as an Autobot leader, and having a ‘crooked cop’ off-sider is inspired. Mind you, I’ve sometimes thought of Inferno as an alternative leader figure. Firefighters are pillars of the community and heroic by definition, and there’s something appealing for kids about those big red engines.

I could totally see the Battle Convey toy as the ‘non-leader but last line of defence’ character, more like a ‘Little John’ than a ‘Robin Hood’. You could also give the Powered Convey that role, or even make it the same character who can simply choose between two different trailers.

Metroplex as a neutral force fits nicely with the toy having attachment points for the various Scramble City leaders. You could even have all those teams as his minions. Another variation on the idea would be for the citadel to be the objective of conflict for both sides, like a kind of Castle Greyskull.

Also, I more generally like the idea of a third faction. This slides into the ‘non-transforming Transformer’ problem, but if they’d made a few Quintesson toys, they could then have assigned the Sharkticon to that faction, made an Alicon toy, and even aligned the Predacons and Terrorcons with them, given that both teams were seen working with the Quintessons now-and-then.

GoktimusPrime

I had been wondering if there was a meaning behind Destron, as I was looking for something to call an evil faction, who were not remotely into deception but rather open conquest.

I guess my youthful impression of the cartoon Autobot-Decepticon divide was like the scenario of an historically legitimate civil authority supplanted by a military junta. However, one day I might have to delve into the far more mature story-telling of the various comics, which really seem to do justice to the complexity of power and ethics.

Also, I should acknowledge that SWAT services have their place, and the Rook toy itself looks like a nice design.

Somehow the Auto-Scout made a big impression on me. I understand there is a third-party toy of it, which looks cool. I agree that just two alt-modes is usually a pathetic thing, but more forgivable in a mere accessory.

The huge disparity in faction numbers has always bothered me and, in what may be an overly fussy way, I’ve done my best to keep my sides even. I tend to wait till I can see both an Autobot and a Decepticon in shops that I like, and maybe look like they could take each other on, before I buy. This has slowed the growth of my collection over the years, and I’ve only started to relax this standard recently.

As for Velociraptors, I'm just impressed how a movie took one or more obscure dinosaurs and made them a household name.