No Guns, No Swords, No Briefcases

[TaZZerath]

Todays Topic on TaZZerath's Throught-provoking Talks; what type of weapons do you prefer for your favourite 'bots?

What i'm thinking here is Ranged (guns, pistols, rifles), Melee (swords, hammers) but also Integrated; that is, weapons that aren't necessarily individual accessories of their own right which can come off but are part of your Transformers' arsenal.

Personally, I'm a big fan of both Ranged and Melee and it comes down to the 'bot itself. For example, RoTF Bludgeon (with his 3P upgrade) has two sweet shiny metallic swords; one short and one long (I'm not gonna mess up the Japanese in terms of which sword is what). Suits him perfectly as a samurai warrior. CW Leader Ultra Magnus' missiles and gun are great and while I love that they had the ability to combine them into the Magnus Hammer, it doesn't 'fit' for me, plus I discard the second 'stumpy' gun and just keep the rifle. TR Triggerhappy's built-in guns which can be flipped out in robot mode are a sweet addition, and the 3P minigun I got for T30 Springer (mimicking his Last Stand of the Wreckers scene against Overlord) suits him to a tee.

So what are your favourite weapons? Who do they suit best? You might even have just a weapon type which can go with any 'bot!

-Masters with built-in weapon modes that other 'bots can wield (like Targetmasters) can count too!

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm gonna be really boring and say GUNS, because honestly, ranged weapons are just superior to ranged weapons in practically every single way. Especially anything like an automatic assault rifle or better.

Fiction likes to romanticise melee weapons like swords, but the reality is that fighters have always preferred ranged weapons once that technology became available. Even the Samurai preferred ranged weapons. Their weapon of choice was the rifle, initially imported from Portugal and Spain, then later the Japanese learnt to modify and manufacture their own firearms. Even before the importation of firearms, the Samurai's preferred weapon was the bow and arrow; Samurai were adept archers. Not that Bludgeon is really a Samurai, and as we all know, the original Bludgeon toy never came with any ranged weapons, only guns. It was Simon Furman who equipped him with a sword in the G1 and G2 comics, but the original toy never had one.

And another thing is, a lot of writers don't make characters fight with melee weapons properly either. They typically have them attack each other's weapons instead of attacking the opponent. e.g. swords bouncing off each other. This makes absolutely no sense. The objective is to kill the enemy, not to play percussion by whacking your swords against each other. Also, swords don't bounce. When two blades meet they lock and the two fighters engage in a kind of sword-to-sword wrestling match, because the first guy to lose is going to get sliced. Admittedly I have limited knowledge of melee weapon fighting, but I'm sure that trained melee weapon martial artists here like 1AZRAEL1 can shed more light on this matter.

Transformers who have retractable built in guns (and sure, swords) is a really cool feature because it gives you versatility. Your arms can become guns, and if need be, swords or even rocket launchers etc. This is something that G1 had (e.g. Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker etc.), but it wasn't always exploited by writers. Bayformers made it a more common thing, and I gotta say, it's a pretty neat idea from a practical fighting POV. Built-in weapons means that you can't be disarmed (unless you're amputated), and you can switch to melee weaponry or even hand-to-hand if the situation calls for it. Although IRL the need to use non-range weaponry is extremely low. If you can at all shoot an opponent then of course you'd shoot them!

So yeah, I guess my favourite weapon sets would be for guys like Bayformers Optimus Prime and Bumblebee, TF Prime Optimus Prime etc. 'Bots who have both ranged and melee weapons built into them.

[DELTAprime]

I always loved Hot Rod's exhaust lasers or whatever they were called in the '86 movie.

[Jellico]

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armor against archery. Accuracy was a big issue with guns before industrial rifling. Waiting for the whites of their eyes was a real thing. Alternatively rate of fire can be too low, see the traditional bayonet. Finally range can be so low ranged weapons become too awkward to use. Eg trench combat in WWI.

I am not sure that any of this applies to a species with black hole tapping fusion cannons.

The big issue I see with built in weapons is that you lose your wrist. Wrists offer a lot of fine tuning.

[Jetfire in the sky]

So if we're talking robots here there is no need for a melee weapon unless it has some sort of energy emission ala light saber, so then I'd go with a combo rifle, a long range out to 5000m energy weapon with back up projectile with depleted uranium tip option and then a shorter accuracy out to 1000m energy/projectile weapon with high explosive launcher attachment.

A shoulder mounted rail gun would be nice too if I'm a giant robot.

[Galvatran]

*snip* because honestly, ranged weapons are just superior to ranged weapons in practically every single way.

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armor against archery.

Eg against zombies.

[GoktimusPrime]

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armour against archery. Accuracy was a big issue with guns before industrial rifling. Waiting for the whites of their eyes was a real thing. Alternatively rate of fire can be too low, see the traditional bayonet. Finally range can be so low ranged weapons become too awkward to use. Eg trench combat in WWI.

Again, you're referring to pre-automatic assault rifle range weaponry there. The benchmark would be the automatic assault rifle. Anything at that tech level or better would render melee weapons effectively useless.

Melee weapons might be useful for needing to take out a target silently, like sneaking up behind an opponent and then gagging them while plunging a blade through their back. But it would be for scenarios where, for whatever reason, sniping them from a distance isn't an option. Lockdown in AOE showed just how incredibly deadly long range sniping can be. Poor Ratchet stood about as much of a chance as a fart against a whirlwind.

I am not sure that any of this applies to a species with black hole tapping fusion cannons.

lol! Many tech levels above the assault rifle! But yeah, it was the assault rifle that rendered melee combat useless here on Earth (as has often been mentioned in the Martial Arts Discussion thread), which is why I'd use it as a minimum technological benchmark.

The big issue I see with built in weapons is that you lose your wrist. Wrists offer a lot of fine tuning.

Losing your wrists would make you incapable of operating non-built-in hand-held guns too.

So if we're talking robots here there is no need for a melee weapon unless it has some sort of energy emission ala light saber, so then I'd go with a combo rifle, a long range out to 5000m energy weapon with back up projectile with depleted uranium tip option and then a shorter accuracy out to 1000m energy/projectile weapon with high explosive launcher attachment.

Even an energy melee weapon like a light sabre would be pretty needless if you just have energy projectile ballistics. This is why even Star Wars needed to disclaim that only highly trained/adept Force users would ever wield a lightsabre in battle, especially against opponents with energy weapons. But even then their powers are limited once the enemy has sufficient firepower. Obi-Wan and Qui Gon couldn't hold their ground against the Droidekas. And we saw many Jedi being outgunned and killed by Clone Troopers at the execution of Order 66. The lightsabre is really a melee range duelling weapon with limited capacity as an anti-ballistic shield. But as it's also explained the Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers.

At best guns and swords on Transformers would work similarly to that on Samurai. In actual warfare the Samurai would absolutely use range weapons like bows and rifles, but in one-on-one duels they would use swords.



Historical Tangent
By the Tokugawa Shogunate, Samurai had become very proficient riflemen. About 30% of Samurai forces at the time were riflemen. When Tokugawa attempted to invade China, they were met by resistance by the Koreans (who were allies of the Chinese). The Koreans knew that they couldn't defeat the Samurai in land battle due to a combination of superior weapons tech (guns) and skills (i.e. battle hardened after the Sengoku Period). But the Koreans (actually just one dude) knew that what they lacked in land battle capability, they made up for in naval superiority. The Koreans (and later a Korean-Chinese alliance) managed to defeat the Japanese by intercepting their ships and defeating them at sea before they could make landfall. And even Japanese forces that managed to slip by and land were cut off from the rest of the fleet (and thus were unable to be resupplied). The Yi Sun Shin revolutioned Asian naval combat because he took advantage of their use of superior cannons rather than just boarding enemy boats and effectively having land battles on deck. Blow up the enemy boats and sink them before they could get close enough to board. Admiral Yi also developed boarding-resistant turtle ships. Admiral Yi actually won more naval battles than Horatio Nelson. Nelson won about half of his battles. Yi won almost all of his battles. And the one battle that he lost was really because of treachery from a Chinese ally; but even with that setback he never lost a ship.

[Jellico]

Ah Japan. Their history is so messed up and revised and reimagined every time the guys in charge change everything works.
But yeah. Point well made. When Samurai needed to fight as soldiers guns were very welcome.


Having brought up Nelson here is an interesting naval example.
French doctrine basically said aim for the rigging and disable the ship at range.
English doctrine was to wear the hits, get close and aim for the waterline.
Now admittedly the English got a lot more practice and could actually hit something. But it shows an environment where both sides were using basically the same technology but short range combat was more effective than ranged and the sorts of prerequisites needed.

Perhaps we are looking at this wrong. Instead of looking at the strength of the weapons maybe we should be looking at the armour? Depends on the universe and the power of narrativium but most Cybertronians seem insanely tough to kill.

[GoktimusPrime]

Having brought up Nelson here is an interesting naval example.
French doctrine basically said aim for the rigging and disable the ship at range.
English doctrine was to wear the hits, get close and aim for the waterline.
Now admittedly the English got a lot more practice and could actually hit something. But it shows an environment where both sides were using basically the same technology but short range combat was more effective than ranged and the sorts of prerequisites needed.

Ship-to-ship battle is a different thing from interpersonal combat between individual combatants. Space battles are never accurately portrayed in science fiction, because quite frankly they would be really boring if they were. The fact is that expelled energy blasts like lasers literally travel at the speed of light. This is pretty much impossible to dodge. A starfighter or ship trying to dodge laser blasts is akin to a person trying to dodge a bullet. Unless you're living in the Matrix it's pretty much impossible.

Perhaps we are looking at this wrong. Instead of looking at the strength of the weapons maybe we should be looking at the armour? Depends on the universe and the power of narrativium but most Cybertronians seem insanely tough to kill.

Heh, Cybertronians are about as tough or easy to kill as the plot demands. Brawn is the second strongest Autobot next to Optimus Prime, and yet a single shot to the shoulder was all it took to finish him off.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Unicron had lasers coming from his eyes and corrosive(?) breath. Thought that was pretty badass.