No Guns, No Swords, No Briefcases

[TaZZerath]

Todays Topic on TaZZerath's Throught-provoking Talks; what type of weapons do you prefer for your favourite 'bots?

What i'm thinking here is Ranged (guns, pistols, rifles), Melee (swords, hammers) but also Integrated; that is, weapons that aren't necessarily individual accessories of their own right which can come off but are part of your Transformers' arsenal.

Personally, I'm a big fan of both Ranged and Melee and it comes down to the 'bot itself. For example, RoTF Bludgeon (with his 3P upgrade) has two sweet shiny metallic swords; one short and one long (I'm not gonna mess up the Japanese in terms of which sword is what). Suits him perfectly as a samurai warrior. CW Leader Ultra Magnus' missiles and gun are great and while I love that they had the ability to combine them into the Magnus Hammer, it doesn't 'fit' for me, plus I discard the second 'stumpy' gun and just keep the rifle. TR Triggerhappy's built-in guns which can be flipped out in robot mode are a sweet addition, and the 3P minigun I got for T30 Springer (mimicking his Last Stand of the Wreckers scene against Overlord) suits him to a tee.

So what are your favourite weapons? Who do they suit best? You might even have just a weapon type which can go with any 'bot!

-Masters with built-in weapon modes that other 'bots can wield (like Targetmasters) can count too!

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm gonna be really boring and say GUNS, because honestly, ranged weapons are just superior to ranged weapons in practically every single way. Especially anything like an automatic assault rifle or better.

Fiction likes to romanticise melee weapons like swords, but the reality is that fighters have always preferred ranged weapons once that technology became available. Even the Samurai preferred ranged weapons. Their weapon of choice was the rifle, initially imported from Portugal and Spain, then later the Japanese learnt to modify and manufacture their own firearms. Even before the importation of firearms, the Samurai's preferred weapon was the bow and arrow; Samurai were adept archers. Not that Bludgeon is really a Samurai, and as we all know, the original Bludgeon toy never came with any ranged weapons, only guns. It was Simon Furman who equipped him with a sword in the G1 and G2 comics, but the original toy never had one.

And another thing is, a lot of writers don't make characters fight with melee weapons properly either. They typically have them attack each other's weapons instead of attacking the opponent. e.g. swords bouncing off each other. This makes absolutely no sense. The objective is to kill the enemy, not to play percussion by whacking your swords against each other. Also, swords don't bounce. When two blades meet they lock and the two fighters engage in a kind of sword-to-sword wrestling match, because the first guy to lose is going to get sliced. Admittedly I have limited knowledge of melee weapon fighting, but I'm sure that trained melee weapon martial artists here like 1AZRAEL1 can shed more light on this matter.

Transformers who have retractable built in guns (and sure, swords) is a really cool feature because it gives you versatility. Your arms can become guns, and if need be, swords or even rocket launchers etc. This is something that G1 had (e.g. Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker etc.), but it wasn't always exploited by writers. Bayformers made it a more common thing, and I gotta say, it's a pretty neat idea from a practical fighting POV. Built-in weapons means that you can't be disarmed (unless you're amputated), and you can switch to melee weaponry or even hand-to-hand if the situation calls for it. Although IRL the need to use non-range weaponry is extremely low. If you can at all shoot an opponent then of course you'd shoot them!

So yeah, I guess my favourite weapon sets would be for guys like Bayformers Optimus Prime and Bumblebee, TF Prime Optimus Prime etc. 'Bots who have both ranged and melee weapons built into them.

[DELTAprime]

I always loved Hot Rod's exhaust lasers or whatever they were called in the '86 movie.

[Jellico]

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armor against archery. Accuracy was a big issue with guns before industrial rifling. Waiting for the whites of their eyes was a real thing. Alternatively rate of fire can be too low, see the traditional bayonet. Finally range can be so low ranged weapons become too awkward to use. Eg trench combat in WWI.

I am not sure that any of this applies to a species with black hole tapping fusion cannons.

The big issue I see with built in weapons is that you lose your wrist. Wrists offer a lot of fine tuning.

[Jetfire in the sky]

So if we're talking robots here there is no need for a melee weapon unless it has some sort of energy emission ala light saber, so then I'd go with a combo rifle, a long range out to 5000m energy weapon with back up projectile with depleted uranium tip option and then a shorter accuracy out to 1000m energy/projectile weapon with high explosive launcher attachment.

A shoulder mounted rail gun would be nice too if I'm a giant robot.

[Galvatran]

*snip* because honestly, ranged weapons are just superior to ranged weapons in practically every single way.

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armor against archery.

Eg against zombies.

[GoktimusPrime]

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armour against archery. Accuracy was a big issue with guns before industrial rifling. Waiting for the whites of their eyes was a real thing. Alternatively rate of fire can be too low, see the traditional bayonet. Finally range can be so low ranged weapons become too awkward to use. Eg trench combat in WWI.

Again, you're referring to pre-automatic assault rifle range weaponry there. The benchmark would be the automatic assault rifle. Anything at that tech level or better would render melee weapons effectively useless.

Melee weapons might be useful for needing to take out a target silently, like sneaking up behind an opponent and then gagging them while plunging a blade through their back. But it would be for scenarios where, for whatever reason, sniping them from a distance isn't an option. Lockdown in AOE showed just how incredibly deadly long range sniping can be. Poor Ratchet stood about as much of a chance as a fart against a whirlwind.

I am not sure that any of this applies to a species with black hole tapping fusion cannons.

lol! Many tech levels above the assault rifle! But yeah, it was the assault rifle that rendered melee combat useless here on Earth (as has often been mentioned in the Martial Arts Discussion thread), which is why I'd use it as a minimum technological benchmark.

The big issue I see with built in weapons is that you lose your wrist. Wrists offer a lot of fine tuning.

Losing your wrists would make you incapable of operating non-built-in hand-held guns too.

So if we're talking robots here there is no need for a melee weapon unless it has some sort of energy emission ala light saber, so then I'd go with a combo rifle, a long range out to 5000m energy weapon with back up projectile with depleted uranium tip option and then a shorter accuracy out to 1000m energy/projectile weapon with high explosive launcher attachment.

Even an energy melee weapon like a light sabre would be pretty needless if you just have energy projectile ballistics. This is why even Star Wars needed to disclaim that only highly trained/adept Force users would ever wield a lightsabre in battle, especially against opponents with energy weapons. But even then their powers are limited once the enemy has sufficient firepower. Obi-Wan and Qui Gon couldn't hold their ground against the Droidekas. And we saw many Jedi being outgunned and killed by Clone Troopers at the execution of Order 66. The lightsabre is really a melee range duelling weapon with limited capacity as an anti-ballistic shield. But as it's also explained the Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers.

At best guns and swords on Transformers would work similarly to that on Samurai. In actual warfare the Samurai would absolutely use range weapons like bows and rifles, but in one-on-one duels they would use swords.



Historical Tangent
By the Tokugawa Shogunate, Samurai had become very proficient riflemen. About 30% of Samurai forces at the time were riflemen. When Tokugawa attempted to invade China, they were met by resistance by the Koreans (who were allies of the Chinese). The Koreans knew that they couldn't defeat the Samurai in land battle due to a combination of superior weapons tech (guns) and skills (i.e. battle hardened after the Sengoku Period). But the Koreans (actually just one dude) knew that what they lacked in land battle capability, they made up for in naval superiority. The Koreans (and later a Korean-Chinese alliance) managed to defeat the Japanese by intercepting their ships and defeating them at sea before they could make landfall. And even Japanese forces that managed to slip by and land were cut off from the rest of the fleet (and thus were unable to be resupplied). The Yi Sun Shin revolutioned Asian naval combat because he took advantage of their use of superior cannons rather than just boarding enemy boats and effectively having land battles on deck. Blow up the enemy boats and sink them before they could get close enough to board. Admiral Yi also developed boarding-resistant turtle ships. Admiral Yi actually won more naval battles than Horatio Nelson. Nelson won about half of his battles. Yi won almost all of his battles. And the one battle that he lost was really because of treachery from a Chinese ally; but even with that setback he never lost a ship.

[Raptormesh]

And another thing is, a lot of writers don't make characters fight with melee weapons properly either. They typically have them attack each other's weapons instead of attacking the opponent. e.g. swords bouncing off each other. This makes absolutely no sense. The objective is to kill the enemy, not to play percussion by whacking your swords against each other. Also, swords don't bounce. When two blades meet they lock and the two fighters engage in a kind of sword-to-sword wrestling match, because the first guy to lose is going to get sliced. Admittedly I have limited knowledge of melee weapon fighting, but I'm sure that trained melee weapon martial artists here like 1AZRAEL1 can shed more light on this matter.

This is very true and is often quite entertaining, striking the right distance is like 80% of the skill sometimes.

Also you don't want to lock blades for more than a fraction of a second. You either try to use it and unfoot your opponent or go in for a grapple(can be more effective than prolonging the fight). There's a general guideline where the top third of the blade is used for cutting, the middle third for parry and the bottom third for blocking. Swords are valuable(and only used as last resort, guns/bows/spears are more efficient) and therefore you don't want to keep smashing it against another.

Source: Iaidoka

[GoktimusPrime]

Ya know... guys like Blast Off could potentially have one of the most underrated weapons -- orbital strikes. Blast Off's G1 bio does state that Blast Off can burn a hole through a rocketing ICBM at a range of 19,312km. That's pretty intense. It also states that he can hit targets on the ground from orbit. Now his bio also states that the potency of his laser is reduced by up to 80% in atmosphere. I'm assuming that its potency in hitting a cruising ICBM is greater than hitting an on the ground target, so maybe it's only reduced by say 20% in the upper atmosphere or stratosphere, I don't know. And one would assume that it's reduced by 0% in a vacuum. Either way, it seems like Blast Off could do some considerable damage from orbit. Just imagine if they gave him a better gun.


Combining to form Bruticus seems kinda redundant now

[TaZZerath]

Combining to form Bruticus seems kinda redundant now

Maybe this is why he was demoted in Combiner Wars for a Jetformer instead

I can imagine the group meeting beforehand....

ONSLAUGHT: Okay guys we're finally getting an upgrade. We're gonna have better articulation, some snazzy new vehicle modes, and tighter combining joints. So before we proceed, anyone have any questions?

*Brawl raises his hand*

ONSLAUGHT: *sigh* Brawl, if you're gonna ask me for a double barrel turret again, I swear to Primus...
BRAWL: No it aint that, boss. I was reading Ozformers the other day and-
ONSLAUGHT: WHATformers?
BRAWL: Ozformers. It's a human website in Oztraylia where people discuss us.
*murmuring around the group*
ONSLAUGHT: Ok so we target this "Oztraylia" in with Bruticus first, but do go on...
BRAWL: Well, one of their members said that Blast Off has this CRAZY powerful orbital cannon.
*all members turn to face Blast off*
BLAST OFF *looking bewildered*: What?
BRAWL: Yeah apparently he can disintegrate targets from orbit with a single shot.
ONSLAUGHT: You been holding out on us, BO?
BLAST OFF *turns to a very nervous looking Swindle*: I TOLD you they wouldn't understand!
BRAWL: Thing is, the effectiveness in atmosphere is REALLY weak.
VORTEX: No, no, no, no. This won't work. We're all PLANET based vehicles! Whats the slagging point of it?! Get rid of it and get something PRACTICAL for Unicron's sake!
BLAST OFF: Oh, I see, so AS USUSAL, I have to be the one who caters for EVERYONE ELSE! Well, not THIS TIME! SCREW you guys I'm OUTTA HERE. *storms out*
Silence lingers in the air....
SWINDLE *trying to take some heat off*: So, uh, all in favour of a new partner? I know a guy, jet, same brown colour, would fit with the group....
ONSLAUGHT:..... does he mind a name change? Coz, y'know, Bruticus can't really cope with remembering a new one.
SWINDLE: If I arm him with some upgrades, a name change would be the LEAST he would do!
ONSLAUGHT: Well all right then. All in favour?