Avengers Endgame SPOILER discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

Hhhmmm... so this means that when Further Future Steve Rogers went back in time to live with Agent Carter, the they must have been secretly married or whatever so as to not alert his existence to others, especially to Steve Rogers Prime. So, when Future Steve Rogers travelled back to 1970 and saw Carter, she was already married to Further Future Steve Rogers. And when she was "reunited" with Steve Rogers Prime... Further Future Steve Rogers was already an old man too and was probably hiding in the garage or something? Whoa!

I do like how this movie dealt with time-travel as a means of changing the future and not the past. Because otherwise it would've been another Days of Future Past, and TBH I would've been fine with that too. But seeing them deliberately avoid this trope was pretty awesome. It also means that they're not rendering the events of previous films useless or non-canon etc. - it's not that easy "reset" switch that a lot of time-travel movies do. And yeah, the fact that Gamora Prime and Black Widow were permanently gone was something I did not expect. And it was bitter sweet seeing Past Gamora arrive, especially when she met Star Lord.

I'm expecting to see more regular nerd-sized fans cosplaying as Endgame Thor! Who needs a six-pack when you can have a keg!

[Omega Metro]

Saw it yesterday. Not a big fan of the time travel thing. Just feels like a cop out. Was hoping for some surprise new characters to pop up like what Red Skull did in Infinity War. I feel like Black Widow should of been there in that final battle.
And when Tony snapped his fingers, why did only the baddies turn to dust?

[Ralph Wiggum]

Saw it last night and I really enjoyed it, mostly as a fitting way to send off the phase 1 MCU characters. The actors’ sign offs in the end credits was a great touch. The movie was really 3 hours of fan service, bringing back characters and actors (Robert Redford, Tilda Swinton among others) which added a special feel to the movie. That elevator scene with Captain America was absolutely sublime.

It was good to see Captain Marvel wasn’t the ace in the deck who saved the day. It really was a Avengers movie through and through. I honestly admit the “women of Marvel” scene smacked a bit of tokenism (as did my wife), but I’m not going to go “reeeeeeee feminism!” or anything. Expect some triggered people though.

I acknowledge the time travel aspect was a little difficult to swallow. Still trying to get my head around how fucking around with the past doesn’t affect the future. Or are they simply saying as long as all the stones are in the “present” then nothing changes? Eh, I’d say Back to the Future does it better.

Still, I couldn’t ask for much more from this film. There won’t be anything like a MCU for a long time. Nor should other studios try it, and those who tried unsurprisingly haven’t had the same success.

And when Tony snapped his fingers, why did only the baddies turn to dust?

Because the stones implement the will of whomever wields them.
Hence why Thanos’ snap wiped out half of sentient life. He’s smart enough to know that nature tends to balance itself out over time, and that intervention is only required for the species which overpopulates without regard or control.
Hence why Banner’s snap brought back the vanished, because that is what he wanted.
Tony only snapped to stop Thanos and his army, and that is what happened.

[GoktimusPrime]

Saw it yesterday. Not a big fan of the time travel thing. Just feels like a cop out.

I felt that it was less of a cop out than the "Days of Future Past" option. At least here by adhering to the grandfather/boostrap paradox they actually cannot alter the past but only the future. And we all knew that time travel would have to be the solution because how else are you going to bring back characters that have sequels coming out (e.g. Spider-Man Far From Home etc.)?

I feel like Black Widow should have been there in that final battle.

I would've preferred it too, but objectively speaking sacrificing Black Widow was the more logical choice since Hawkeye has a family. Black Widow's death leaves sad friends in the wake; Hawkeye's death would do the same but also leave a grieving widow and three orphans. Black Widow wasn't just thinking about her friend, she was also thinking about his family; and we know that she's a good friend of the Barton family.

From a story perspective the loss of Black Widow and Iron Man (and the continued loss of Gamora Prime) gave the story more gravitas. It reminds the audience that this is a consequential war. And it makes the ending less of a "cop out" than it otherwise would have been with a time travel story. Yeah, the loss of these characters suck. It hurts. It's meant to hurt. And while Iron Man orphaned his daughter, he did ensure that she has a future to be orphaned in.

And when Tony snapped his fingers, why did only the baddies turn to dust?

Because it's what Tony Stark wished for; he can bend reality to his will. This is what Thanos did when he supposedly wiped out half of all life in the universe, but in Tony's case he wished for wiping out Thanos and all of his forces. Thanos' new plan was to wish for the universe to be reset with the population reduced and never knowing any other reality.

Another interesting point in the movie was when Captain America took time to notice the benefits of Thanos' plans; when he mentioned how clean the ocean was and how he saw a pod of whales (suggesting that the whale population is recovering). This was always the thing that made Thanos such an interesting villain; while the idea of murdering half the population of the universe is abhorrent, the idea of saving the environment for the sake of future generations makes a whole lot of sense. Of course, Thanos could've just wished for more resources and cleaner environments (e.g. wishing away pollution, patching up the ozone layer etc.) instead of killing people, but then it wouldn't make him much of an antagonist.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Interesting suggestion of Thanos wishing for more resources/cleaner environments as an alternative. Sadly though I’m inclined to think that this will inevitably lead to the same problem in the future and Thanos will end up with the same problem, and multiple snaps are a no-no. Although not explored in the movies, I wonder if the Thanos snap also sends a message to the survivors to get their shit together and build a more sustainable population.

His change of mind at the climax of the movie to wipe out all sentient life was a good touch though.

[GoktimusPrime]

Interesting suggestion of Thanos wishing for more resources/cleaner environments as an alternative. Sadly though I’m inclined to think that this will inevitably lead to the same problem in the future and Thanos will end up with the same problem, and multiple snaps are a no-no. Although not explored in the movies, I wonder if the Thanos snap also sends a message to the survivors to get their stuff together and build a more sustainable population.

You could say the same about Plan A though. What's to stop the universe from becoming overpopulated again and repeating history's mistakes? Thanos needs to also broadcast a universal message to tell people WHY the snap happened so that survivors will ensure that future generations don't repeat the past. Thanos should possibly not destroy the gems but perhaps store them somewhere securely (like maybe a pocket dimension or something) as a threat against the universe should they forget the lesson that he taught them.

I guess the problem with creating more resources and undoing environmental harm is that people might take Thanos' powers for granted; unless in this situation Thanos would broadcast a message saying that it was only possible to do it the one time, destroy the gems and ensure that survivors teach future generations not to squander their resources.

His change of mind at the climax of the movie to wipe out all sentient life was a good touch though.

Not just wipe out but replace. So in that sense he still sees himself as a hero because while he will murder the existing population, he will replace it with a whole new smaller population who will know nothing of what had happened before. He could potentially educate this new generation from the beginning to never overpopulate and abuse natural resources; prevention becomes better than cure.

And funnily enough, it's a philosophy that Iron Man adopts to a much smaller scale. Thanos' Plan B was sacrifice the current population to save future populations. Iron Man adapted this to sacrificing one individual (himself) to save present and future populations. But of course, Iron Man's plan utterly fails to address the environmental issues that Thanos was combating. The universe is now overpopulated again. Unless Tony Stark also simultaneously wished for the undoing of pollution and doubling of natural resources, but the movie never showed this so I'm assuming it didn't happen.

And should the Soul stone have given the loved one back? Evidently not as we don’t see Black Widow return, though she does have a solo movie being greenlighted..

The soul given is payment for access to the soul stone so refunds aren't valid. When Black Widow died Gamora Prime doesn't come back, nor should she.

Gamora Prime's soul was given as payment for Thanos Prime's access to the soul stone. He took the stone and used it, thus the stone is not obliged to give Thanos Prime a refund. Black Widow's soul was given as payment for Hawkeye's access to the soul stone. When the stone is used it has no obligation to refund the user. After all, the user could potentially use the soul stone for an unlimited number of times. Thanos Prime said that he destroyed the stones after using them (using the stones to wish them into oblivion); but if he hadn't then I don't see any reason why he couldn't have kept them.

Speaking of which, I don't remember what happened to the stones after Stark used them.

[DaptoDog]

Speaking of which, I don't remember what happened to the stones after Stark used them.

Umm Hulk got Cap to return them to their original places.

Saw it again today and enjoyed it just as much if not more. Have to say I love the credits that showcased each actor, such a fitting way to wrap it up.

[M-bot]

A couple of thoughts:

Ned died in the snap. Presumably 1/2 of Spiderman’s class did too. If the returning ones came back to school like Peter and Ned, that would mean that some of the characters in Homecoming are 5 years older than others, including Peter and Ned.

I was expecting to have some clues as to whether or not Far From Home is going to be a prequel to Infinity War or set after Endgame, but if there was, I missed it. It’s been stated that it is the last film of phase 3, so I’m going with prequel.

I thought the way they treated time travel was great. No multiverse! They went to lengths to explain that the way time travel is explained in most popular movies is not how it works here, which I think is smart.

The “forced” woman hero fighting scene was no more contrived than when similar scenes appears in every second popular action film since forever. A similar contrivance happened in the first and second Avengers film, and no one cared. It’s just that people like to complain when these contrivances contain minorities. The complaint is a nonsense one, IMO. My wife loved it and cheered when it happened. So did I.

Some other highlights: Fat Thor. “Bucky is alive”. “Hail Hydra”.

Love it to bits. While I don’t think it’s the best movie ever made, it may be up there with my absolute favourites.

[GoktimusPrime]

As far as story and plot are concerned, I'd still rate Infinity War as better. But as far as character development is concerned, Endgame is superior. I liked how it was a slow burn for the characters' journeys and in the intervening five years we got to see the Avengers doing just a lot of average every day stuff. They weren't "avenging." Steve Rogers is running a support group, Tony Stark is a husband and father etc. Okay, Clint Barton went off the deep end, but still... they were off having their own personal journeys. And the movie worked on wrapping up many of the characters' journeys that they've been on for the past 11 years.

Take Tony Stark for example. We know that he's taken this journey from irresponsible wise-guy to a someone struggling with inner demons (alcoholism, PTSD), and his post-Sarkovia journey has been one that's focused on responsibility and accountability. That's why he supported the Accords. This is why he bonded with Spider-Man (with great power...). It's all about responsibility. And I love the argument that he had with Steve Rogers, pointing out about how he thinks that they could've prevented all this if they'd signed the Accords and allowed the Avengers to stay together and cover the Earth in a protective shield, even if it meant sacrificing some freedoms. Because what's the point of having more freedom if half the world isn't even around to enjoy it and the other half are emotionally and spiritually broken? In Endgame we see Stark go on a new chapter in his journey of responsibility as he becomes a parent. He is initially hesitant in joining the Avengers in their time heist because now he's not just responsible for his own life, he's also responsible for his daughter's life. And his final sacrifice wasn't just to the world but to ensure that his daughter had a future. And we also see this journey being inspired by Howard Stark when Howard tells him that his weakness is putting his personal interests before that of the greater good; this message inspires Tony to rise up and put the interests of the greater good before himself, and thus his sacrifice is also not only Tony Stark's legacy but Howard Stark's legacy as well.


"You will travel far, my little Kal-El^Anthony, but we will never leave you - even in the face of our deaths. You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son."

Umm Hulk got Cap to return them to their original places.

*facepalms self* Duuuhh! Hulk having his arm broken from his attempt at using the Infinity Stones also gives a reason why he didn't just pick the gauntlet up and wish Tony Stark back to life. And if someone as powerful and gamma radiation resistant as the Hulk can't do it odds are none of the others could (heck it nearly killed Thanos).

[Meister]

So when Captain America goes back to Vormir to return the Soul Stone, does he have a punch on with Redskull?