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Thread: Masterpiece style has changed

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigTransformerTrev View Post
    Can you clarify what you mean by this please? I have dozen's of MP's and not a single one of them is a block of grey. They all have paint. Which exact MP's are you referring to?

    Is it you are differentiating between coloured plastics and metal with paint applied on top? Because it's essentially the same make-up; Plastic colourants are chemical compounds made up of dyes and pigments. Paints are also made up of dyes and pigments (primarily pigments). It's just that one is embedded within the material during production and the other is applied after. So coloured plastics are simply a material with the paint embedded. So yeah, curious as to which MP's you are talking about when you say 'no paint'.
    Compare MP Wheeljack to MP Ratchet. Ratchet has a painted finish while Wheeljack is unpainted. Ratchet looks so much more vibrant with that finish compared to Wheeljack.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by philby View Post
    Compare MP Wheeljack to MP Ratchet. Ratchet has a painted finish while Wheeljack is unpainted. Ratchet looks so much more vibrant with that finish compared to Wheeljack.
    No the paint is embedded in the plastic as explained by what you quoted. That's how you get coloured plastics. If Wheeljack was unpainted then it would just be grey like when we get shown prototype teaser pictures.

    As to which looks better and more vibrant, that's personal taste I guess. I agree the white on Ratchet is brighter, but I prefer Wheeljack with all his coloured racing stripes and so on to Ratchets rather plain look.

  3. #23
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    well i guess it was a common and easy distinction to me between plastic with a layer of paint applied on top (ratchet) compared to coloured plastic with no paint applied over the top (most of the white bits of wheeljack). thats what people mean when they say unpainted. because it hasn't been painted on.
    so if the wheel jack body had paint applied on top of the plastic it would be better. this seems to be what they have done with the wheeljack + version.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by philby View Post
    well i guess it was a common and easy distinction to me between plastic with a layer of paint applied on top (ratchet) compared to coloured plastic with no paint applied over the top (most of the white bits of wheeljack). thats what people mean when they say unpainted. because it hasn't been painted on.
    Fair enough, perhaps I was taking the 'no paint' distinction too literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by philby View Post
    so if the wheel jack body had paint applied on top of the plastic it would be better. this seems to be what they have done with the wheeljack + version.
    It would be interesting to see two figures side by side, one painted and the other 'unpainted' to see the comparison. Once again, personally prefer the look of Wheeljack over Ratchet as I find Ratchet too plain, but perhaps I'd prefer a painted to 'unpainted' Wheeljack. Perhaps if someone ends up with both toys they can post some comparison pics of the white on him here.

  5. #25
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    I'm not sure why the change in style in any TF line should come as a surprise to anyone. It's hardly a new thing.
    Transformers started off as being robots in disguise with realistic alt modes, but then in 1986 and especially 1987 it shifted towards including more fantasy ("futuristic"/"Cybertronian") modes.
    Beast Wars also started off being robots in disguise with realistic looking beast modes, but then shifted towards fantasy beast modes with things like Transmetals, Fuzors, Transmetal 2s etc.
    Beast Machines started off being ugly but then shifted towards still being ugly but looking more like the cartoon.
    The Unicron Trilogy deliberately shifted its focus in each series; Mini-Cons! Powerlink! Cyber Keys!
    Movieformers first changed its style with Age of Extinction when they moved away from looking like Transformers(ish) by having robot modes with hardly any alt mode kibble. Then it went through another style shift with the Bumblebee movie which blended G1 and Bayformers aesthetics.
    Compare the style changes between the post-movie mainstream lines aimed at kids: Animated, Prime, RiD, Cyberverse
    Compare the evolution of Classicsverse: Classics --> Universe --> Reveal the Shield --> Generations etc.

    And even the current stylistic change in MP wasn't all of a sudden. The first notable change was with MP10 setting a new standard. It's been a gradual thing though. We've seen toys like MP Ultra Magnus include things like those flippable wheels for greater screen accuracy, for example. It's something that's slowly crept into the line.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Beast Machines started off being ugly but then shifted towards still being ugly but looking more like the cartoon.

  7. #27
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    So I’m a G1fan, there from the start pre 86 movie, grew up with it. I liked the fact that when I was a kid, those toys looked like real cars, trucks, jets etc and could transform into robots (terrible robots, but robots). I caught up with the MP line around the time MP-10 was released. A close friend of mine decided to reveal one of his guilty pleasures and showed me his collection and I fell in love with it all over again because they looked like the real cars and went to the extent of getting the licencing so they could be a proper representation of the vehicle modes, and when they actually transformed, they looked as close as they could to their animated robot modes (something the original G1 toys didn’t even come close to). For me, this was exquisite and I slowly got hooked. Ultimately I would love to see real life vehicle representation with toon accurate robot representation but realistically I don’t see how that would be possible. So when it comes to the look I prefer for MP’s, its definitely trying to find the right balance of real life vehicle representation with as close as you can get animated representation, and I think the era following MP-10 design to probably MP-22 did that best for me personally. I think the issue for MP designers came when they started delving into 86 / post movie figures. None of those toys were based on any real life vehicles, jets etc, so the designers were faced with the choice of either adding their own real life interpretations of those vehicles or sticking with the source material and try and make it toon accurate, which they appeared to have gone with the latter. But that caused another issue, cause when you placed the post 86 figures next to the pre 86 figures, there was a noticeable difference in aesthetic and styling, and to compensate that, I think they started to slowly favour future pre 86 figures to reflect a more toon accurate representation so they could look better as a whole matching collection. I think the most noticeable jump for me to this new aesthetic was Inferno as it was the first pre86 figure whose vehicle mode didn't look "real".

    Personally I’ve decided to limit my MP collection to the G1 Ark crew (with the odd exception here and there), so when I first heard Hound was being released I was on board funds ready and willing, but to be honest, when I saw the official images, it’s the first time I became sort of disappointed. Whilst I love the robot mode, that vehicle mode is just terrible to me, because it was originally based off a real car, and just like Inferno, it does not aesthetically resemble the real car at all. If it had the details of some panel’s etc to make the car appear more realistic I would be in, but that flat plain look just doesn’t sit right with me (even though I get why they are probably moving that way) and for the first time I‘m hesitant to purchase it because I’m unsure on whether they will release a more realistic car as a Plus model sometime in the future (I really, really hope they do). So yeah, whilst I’ll probably end up owning a Hound (preferably a more realistic vehicle looking plus model), I would prefer that they still try and lean towards a more realistic vehicle mode aesthetic for pre86 models regardless if they don't look perfectly matching as a whole collection, simply because those toys were based off real vehicles, and I think if they veer off any more than the balance they struck with Iron Hide and Ratchet it will spoil the MP-10 era aesthetic too much.
    My wife asked me why I carry a gun?, I said "Decepticons"... She laughed, I laughed, the toaster laughed, I shot the toaster. It was a good day.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    I'm not sure why the change in style in any TF line should come as a surprise to anyone. It's hardly a new thing.
    Transformers started off as being robots in disguise with realistic alt modes, but then in 1986 and especially 1987 it shifted towards including more fantasy ("futuristic"/"Cybertronian") modes.
    Beast Wars also started off being robots in disguise with realistic looking beast modes, but then shifted towards fantasy beast modes with things like Transmetals, Fuzors, Transmetal 2s etc.
    Beast Machines started off being ugly but then shifted towards still being ugly but looking more like the cartoon.
    The Unicron Trilogy deliberately shifted its focus in each series; Mini-Cons! Powerlink! Cyber Keys!
    Movieformers first changed its style with Age of Extinction when they moved away from looking like Transformers(ish) by having robot modes with hardly any alt mode kibble. Then it went through another style shift with the Bumblebee movie which blended G1 and Bayformers aesthetics.
    Compare the style changes between the post-movie mainstream lines aimed at kids: Animated, Prime, RiD, Cyberverse
    Compare the evolution of Classicsverse: Classics --> Universe --> Reveal the Shield --> Generations etc.

    And even the current stylistic change in MP wasn't all of a sudden. The first notable change was with MP10 setting a new standard. It's been a gradual thing though. We've seen toys like MP Ultra Magnus include things like those flippable wheels for greater screen accuracy, for example. It's something that's slowly crept into the line.
    I think Generations is the only line that can be debatably compared with Masterpiece. All the other examples are a progressive evolution of design characteristics and focus.

    The discussion with regard to Masterpiece is unique though in the sense that Masterpiece is really the only line that has been about creating that "definitive version" of a classic character, with the change being more about how different designers view that remit, rather than a change in purpose more generally.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meister View Post
    and when they actually transformed, they looked as close as they could to their animated robot modes (something the original G1 toys didn’t even come close to).
    Of course G1 toys didn't come close to looking like the cartoon because the toys came first (mostly). This is like saying that the Latin word "caminus" isn't accurate to its English cognate "chimney." The fact is that the G1 toys were never inaccurate to the cartoon. The cartoon was inaccurate to the toys.

    Now I understand the desire for screen likeness, but to state or imply that the G1 toys were ever "inaccurate" to the cartoon just isn't true. Even the few toys in G1 that were based on cartoon models (e.g. Galvatron, Springer etc.) aren't necessarily inaccurate to the cartoon; they were based on early designs of the show models - they were, by 80s standards, accurate to those early models. But in the time between the inception of the toy design to the release of the final product, alterations were made to the show models so that they didn't always look the same. This still happens even today, just look at Shatter's head. As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), Studio Series Shatter's head looks different because it was based on an earlier design. But these toys are as accurate as they could have been at the time that the toys were designed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meister View Post
    I think the issue for MP designers came when they started delving into 86 / post movie figures. None of those toys were based on any real life vehicles, jets etc,
    Again, not true. While G1 did increasingly include fantasy alt modes, realistic alt modes continued to exist throughout its entire run. Here are some quick examples:
    * 1986: Wildrider = Ferrari 308 GTB sports car
    * 1987: Chase = Ferrari Testarossa sports car
    * 1988: Windsweeper = Rockwell B-1B Lancer bomber
    * 1989: Roadhandler = Pontiac Firebird Trans Am sports car
    * 1990: Motorhead = 1987 Callaway B2K Chevrolet Corvette sports car
    * 1991: Flame = Lamborghini Countach sports car
    * 1992: Falcon = Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter jet
    * 1993: Zap = Chevrolet Camaro Z28
    As I said, I will grant that they shifted more towards fantasy modes, but it's also fair to say that they never abandoned realistic modes either. And when Generation 2 came along they had an even heavier shift back towards realistic alt modes with few exceptions like the Dinobots etc. - but again, no better or worse than Early G1. Just in unrealistic colours.

    And Early G1 had its fair share of unrealistic alt modes too, some of which has even carried over into MP, including:
    * vehicles with non-street legal decos, like Wheeljack and Smokescreen etc. These only work as robots in disguise on the race track.
    * Grimlock. If you want a proper robot in disguise tyrannosaurus rex then get the MP Beast Megatron. Grimlock isn't fooling anyone, no matter how close he may appear in your wing mirror.
    * Ultra Magnus; okay, the truck cab is a Freightliner FL86, but the trailer is pure fantasy.
    * Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime. Alternators/Binaltech gave us a more realistic alt mode for Hot Rod in the year 2005 as a first generation Ford GT.
    * Insecticons, Deluxe Insecticons, Jumpstarters, Omega Supreme, Shockwave, Cosmos, Wheelie, Sharkticons et al.

    1984 was the only year where every alt mode was realistic; even then, Bumblebee and Cliffjumper's vehicle modes are deformed, and Gears is based on a truck of undetermined make and model. G1 has always a mix of realistic and fantasy alt modes, it's just that we saw a shift during the Middle G1 years (1988-90) towards a greater number of fantasy modes, and then a slight swing back towards more realistic alt modes in the Late G1 years (1991-early 93)... but admittedly it was the Early G1 period that saw the highest concentration of realistic alt modes.

    Note: just for the purposes of this discussion I'm counting the weapons/vehicles of Action Masters as "alt modes"; e.g. AM Wheeljack's vehicle is a Ferrari Testarossa (realistic), whereas Over-Run's vehicle is an "attack copter" of fictitious make/model (unrealistic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Meister View Post
    Personally I’ve decided to limit my MP collection to the G1 Ark crew (with the odd exception here and there), so when I first heard Hound was being released I was on board funds ready and willing, but to be honest, when I saw the official images, it’s the first time I became sort of disappointed. Whilst I love the robot mode, that vehicle mode is just terrible to me, because it was originally based off a real car, and just like Inferno, it does not aesthetically resemble the real car at all. If it had the details of some panel’s etc to make the car appear more realistic I would be in, but that flat plain look just doesn’t sit right with me (even though I get why they are probably moving that way) and for the first time I‘m hesitant to purchase it because I’m unsure on whether they will release a more realistic car as a Plus model sometime in the future (I really, really hope they do). So yeah, whilst I’ll probably end up owning a Hound (preferably a more realistic vehicle looking plus model), I would prefer that they still try and lean towards a more realistic vehicle mode aesthetic for pre86 models regardless if they don't look perfectly matching as a whole collection, simply because those toys were based off real vehicles, and I think if they veer off any more than the balance they struck with Iron Hide and Ratchet it will spoil the MP-10 era aesthetic too much.
    Completing the First Year G1 Autobots is a must-have for me, so when the preorder for MP Hound came out I just threw my money at it. I don't collect MPs for realistic alt modes per se (although it's appreciated). When it comes to realistic alt modes I still much prefer Binaltech.

    As much as I'm looking forward to MP Hound, as far as alt modes are concerned nothing can beat Binaltech Hound. But of course, BT Hound doesn't give you a G1 cartoon-like robot mode. And with the crazily detailed vehicle mode (inside and out), die-cast metal panels, rubber tyres, working steering and working suspension, BT Hound doesn't just look like a robot in disguise, it feels like one too.

    Is MP Hound overpriced? Hell yes. Did it stop me from pre-ordering it? Hell no. But I must admit that it's because I am a First Year G1 MP character completist. If I weren't then yeah, I would've abstained and just stuck with my BT Hound.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    And Early G1 had its fair share of unrealistic alt modes too, some of which has even carried over into MP, including:
    * vehicles with non-street legal decos, like Wheeljack and Smokescreen etc. These only work as robots in disguise on the race track.

    1984 was the only year where every alt mode was realistic; even then, Bumblebee and Cliffjumper's vehicle modes are deformed, and Gears is based on a truck of undetermined make and model.
    It's one of the reasons I really liked G1 Crankcase. Yes it was an indeterminate type of 4WD (a bit like Gears), but it seemed the most innocuous, unremarkable Decepticon vehicle I had ever seen. It wasn't a race car or sports car or dune buggy or military vehicle or bright green construction vehicle or any sort of vehicle that would catch your eye - it was just a regular 4WD you might see on any road and not think twice about. Awesome disguise! Until he sprouted guns from his windscreen I guess

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim Prime View Post
    The discussion with regard to Masterpiece is unique though in the sense that Masterpiece is really the only line that has been about creating that "definitive version" of a classic character, with the change being more about how different designers view that remit, rather than a change in purpose more generally.
    I would have liked Masterpiece to be more the 'ultimate' version of that character rather than the most cartoon specific. For instance with G1 Bumblebee, I would have liked to see a Robot that looked a lot like the G1 cartoon, a vehicle that was an accurate VW Beetle, and him to come with a Pretender Shell and a Helipack (like his AM version). For G1 Sideswipe I would have liked to see both a missile launcher (like the toy), a long white shoulder blaster (like the cartoon), a jetpack like he often used but wasn't really animated (except for the one time he handed it to Prime) and his Vanguard AM partner/armour. Probably not realistic to expect I know but it would have been cool.
    Last edited by BigTransformerTrev; 25th July 2019 at 09:58 AM.

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