Toys Then and Now

[UltraMarginal]

I have to say, every time I hear someone say that Transformers was 'Saved' by Beast Wars, pretty much most of what Trevor has said goes through my head.
Even the sculpting on early G1 Toys was outstanding, how else could they have such accurate representations of all those G1 era cars.

I'm not saying Beast Wars didn't do a lot of good for the Transformers Brand, but it didn't 'save' it. In my mind probably the biggest thing Beast Wars taught Hasbro was that if you recreated/retold/reinterpreted/restarted the show to some degree every few years it would be more likely to interest a new wave of children.

Beast Wars was an important chapter in the 35 year history of transformers but it's hardly any more important than any other chapter/era.

[GoktimusPrime]

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying that the advent of Manny features necessarily came from BW. After all toys like Wreck Gar have us the first ball and socket joint and the original Soundwave had weapon incorporation in his alt mode. And G2 gave us the earliest 9 point articulated figures with toys like Laser Rods and Cyber Jets etc. But these things existed in isolated pockets. BW took these concepts, aggregators standardised and improved on them. BW set a new standard which successive lines have followed. The bar existed but BW raised it and that level has become the new basic metric for TF designs.

Remember...
What being a TF collector was like during G2. It was isolating and toys were either really hard to find because retail buyers weren't ordering stock or overflowing with shelf warmers. I still found early G2 toys on shelves as late as 1999! That's like finding TFP Beast Hunter toys in stores today (6 year gap). When you did a web search on "Transformers" all you'd find was results about electronics.

Remember.....
What it was like when BW first came out but the cartoon hadn't yet. The toys were *the* appeal of the line. Back then the official canon was that the BW TFs were reformatted G1s and that's how we played it with our toys. Remember how blown away many of us were when we first handled these toys. It was also the first time that we had beast modes that were proper robots in disguise.

Remember.....
Interacting with the fandom including "AusTrans." About half of our conversations were about BW because they were the new game in town. Toy reviews, toy news etc. - dominated by BW. Remember attending fan meets in the latter half of the 90s. Watching BW marathons (cos I had eps on NTSC VHS from the states allowing us to watch a season ahead of what was airing here), playing with BW toys etc. It was at one such fan meet that we discussed things like how Scavenger was obviously TM Inferno etc.

Maybe you guys experienced the brand and fandom differently in the 90s but that's how I remember it. Before BW I couldn't even find other fans to interact with no matter how much I tried. After BW it was like the floodgates opened and suddenly finding other fans became much easier.

And yes, Car Robot was undeniably hugely successful. I remember RID toys selling like hotcakes and flying off shelves long before the cartoon ever aired.

I'm not saying that BW was the only thing to boost TFs (Bayformers was a big boost) but BW boosted it when TFs was at its lowest point. It breathed new life into what was an effectively dead franchise. Think back to 1995. TFs was screwed. This wasn't the case after BW; we've never sank as low as the mid 90s

[shockNwave]

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying that the advent of Manny features necessarily came from BW. After all toys like Wreck Gar have us the first ball and socket joint and the original Soundwave had weapon incorporation in his alt mode. And G2 gave us the earliest 9 point articulated figures with toys like Laser Rods and Cyber Jets etc. But these things existed in isolated pockets. BW took these concepts, aggregators standardised and improved on them. BW set a new standard which successive lines have followed. The bar existed but BW raised it and that level has become the new basic metric for TF designs.

Remember...
What being a TF collector was like during G2. It was isolating and toys were either really hard to find because retail buyers weren't ordering stock or overflowing with shelf warmers. I still found early G2 toys on shelves as late as 1999! That's like finding TFP Beast Hunter toys in stores today (6 year gap). When you did a web search on "Transformers" all you'd find was results about electronics.

Remember.....
What it was like when BW first came out but the cartoon hadn't yet. The toys were *the* appeal of the line. Back then the official canon was that the BW TFs were reformatted G1s and that's how we played it with our toys. Remember how blown away many of us were when we first handled these toys. It was also the first time that we had beast modes that were proper robots in disguise.

Remember.....
Interacting with the fandom including "AusTrans." About half of our conversations were about BW because they were the new game in town. Toy reviews, toy news etc. - dominated by BW. Remember attending fan meets in the latter half of the 90s. Watching BW marathons (cos I had eps on NTSC VHS from the states allowing us to watch a season ahead of what was airing here), playing with BW toys etc. It was at one such fan meet that we discussed things like how Scavenger was obviously TM Inferno etc.

Maybe you guys experienced the brand and fandom differently in the 90s but that's how I remember it. Before BW I couldn't even find other fans to interact with no matter how much I tried. After BW it was like the floodgates opened and suddenly finding other fans became much easier.

And yes, Car Robot was undeniably hugely successful. I remember RID toys selling like hotcakes and flying off shelves long before the cartoon ever aired.

I'm not saying that BW was the only thing to boost TFs (Bayformers was a big boost) but BW boosted it when TFs was at its lowest point. It breathed new life into what was an effectively dead franchise. Think back to 1995. TFs was screwed. This wasn't the case after BW; we've never sank as low as the mid 90s

I love it when the engineering and alt. modes of BW are mentioned (huge strengths of the series). A well fought riposte, Gok and keep flying the flag for the BW series. The savior series.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Soooo… you are changing your whole argument from:

And bear in mind that the success of Car Robot and successive Transformers lines is thanks to Beast Wars. Car Robot was basically Beast Wars engineering with licensed vehicles. This in turn inspired Binaltech and Masterpiece. I still find design elements in MP and CHUG toys today that originated in BW.

I've got TR Seaspray sitting on my desk atm. Looking at this toy I can see things like:
* Superior detailed sculpting
* Superior durability
* Painted decos instead of stickers
* At least 9 points of articulation in the robot mode
* Weapon is incorporated in the alt mode
Guess what? This all came from Beast Wars!

To:

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying that the advent of Manny features necessarily came from BW. After all toys like Wreck Gar have us the first ball and socket joint and the original Soundwave had weapon incorporation in his alt mode. And G2 gave us the earliest 9 point articulated figures with toys like Laser Rods and Cyber Jets etc. But these things existed in isolated pockets.

And I’m sure you will come up with some convoluted reason that what you said in your first post, which did not stand up to scrutiny, actually had the inner meaning of what you said in your second post. That even though you said it came from Beast Wars, you really meant it came from G1 and Beast Wars standardized it.


And we have gone from:

I'm NOT saying that you have to love Beast Wars, but simply acknowledge the lasting impact that it's had on the Transformers brand that is still felt today.
I'm not talking about any individual's personal experience (that's anecdotal) but the overall impact that these lines have had on the entire brand and fandom as a whole.

To:

Maybe you guys experienced the brand and fandom differently in the 90s but that's how I remember it.

Sigh, I’ve seen this pattern before. I’m not playing the ‘what I meant was’ game with you yet again. I’m out.

A well fought riposte, Gok and keep flying the flag for the BW series. The savior series.

No its not, it completely ignored or sidestepped every counterargument and then contradicted what he said earlier.

Anyway, my new shed got built today so as I said, I'm out. Hope others enjoy the discussion.

[Autocon]

We could create a thread on this topic.

I think todays toy is more a money grab and less thought into how the toy plays. Could be due to todays kids playing more games on computer than before. At least lego is still good and allows for creative play even if its over priced.

[GoktimusPrime]

Trev is quoting me out of context (despite my attempt to clarify my meaning).

The Japanese word for "Transformers" is Toransufoomaa (トランスフォーマー). Now would we say that this word is of English origin? If your answer is "yes," then that's what I meant when I said that many modern features of TFs today originated from BW. Now of course there were examples from long before then, and indeed the word "Transformers" actually comes from Classical Latin (trānsfōrmō), which gave rise to the Ecclesiastic Latin word trānsfōrmātiō, and then came the French word "transformer" (/tʁɑ̃s.fɔʁ.mɛʁ/), which in turn became the English word "transformer" (/tɹ?nsˈfɔːmə/), which eventually became the Japanese name "toransufoomaa." But as the direct link from "Transformer" to "toransufoomaa" came from English to Japanese it's often perceived or classified as an English loan words despite its complete lack of Anglo origin (in pure English we would say "Shapeshifters").

So when I say that many features of current TFs comes from BW I mean that there's a direct link from BW to post-BW toys. But I'm not denying that these features existed before BW either, just as saying that "Transformers is an English loanword" doesn't deny its Roman origins either. This is the way that many things evolve IRL; it's often a gradual process rather than just a single thing. Alexander Graham Bell is credit as the inventor of the telephone but there were telephonic devices already in existence before Bell's telephone, but it was Bell who created what is widely considered the first practical telephone that standardised the design of what we now consider to be telephones. Same with cars. Which single person could you identify as the inventor of the automobile? I would personally go with Gottlieb Daimler but there were certainly numerous other forms of automobiles before Daimler's. Even biological evolution works in the same way. But there are certain moments that we can pinpoint as turning points or major kilometrestones in evolution (including the evolution of TFs) and I would say that BW was one of those key periods.

Okay, I've taken a sample of toys from Early G1 in the mid 1980s.

Soundwave is a remarkably poseable toy for 1st year TF, as is Optimus Prime. And both Soundwave and OP incorporate their weapons into their alt modes, with Soundwave's guns becoming AA batteries and Optimus Prime's rifle having a storage port in his trailer. Now technically Optimus Prime doesn't have any explicit storage for his fists. My original G1 Prime was stolen but I still have his fists! (because they were stored separately during the burglary) Shockwave actually has a lot of nice non-incidental articulation, much of it in the arms. And as mentioned before, Wreck-Gar was the first to sport

Now let's look at the early to mid 1990s with G2.

1992 introduced light piping, such a simple yet ingenious gimmick that's even made its way into at least one MP (Laserwave). As a former G1 toy, Zap inherits this gimmick but then other G2 toys (i.e. repainted Early G1 figures) didn't have this, so it wasn't a standardised feature. The incorporation of the gun as the engine block is neat, and while many G1.5 toys did this the purely G2 toys didn't, so again, not standard. At best we might say "semi-standard." 1994 was the year where Transformers started blowing my socks off and started becoming action figures. Combat Hero Megatron is by far my favourite toy from that year. Smaller and cheaper yet far superior to the 1993 G2 Megatron toy. The Laser Rods as well as Darkwing and Smokescreen were also quite impressive action figures, but then we also had Rotor Force and more G1 repaints, so again, semi-standardisation at best. Then 1995 rolled along and gave us incredible toys like Laser Optimus Prime which, IMO, reigned as the best Optimus Prime toy ever made until 2007. Just when I thought Combat Heroes were the best, HasTak came and blew my socks off again with this awesome figure. But then we had other weird toys like the horrific Power Masters. Autorollers and Go-Bots were also limited in articulation, although the Cyber Jets revisited and expanded on the idea of ball and socket joints. G2 really had some clever innovations but they didn't come to dominate the line and also importantly, it failed to generate toy sales. This is why TF shopping at this time was so frustrating... stores often had insufficient stock or an overabundance.

Now we come to the latter part of the 1990s with Beast Wars

They picked up that G2 ball and ran with it. Every toy had no fewer than 9 points of articulation. Toys were far more durable; many of these toys could take a beating and a lot of parts were designed to be reattached if they came off. Weapon incorporation became standardised. The level of sculpting went up a notch; from things like fur grain and even the interior of certain parts. Look at Inferno's abdomen panels. You can see mechanical details sculpted there but it's covered by a translucent metallic red carapace. That's insane! 1999's Dead End also packed a lot of punch for such a cheap little Basic Class figure (admittedly we saw airbrushing before in 1998's Optimal Optimus). BW also gave us the first animal moded robots in disguise. Inferno looks like a fire ant. None of the G1 Insecticons look like realistic insects, not even the Deluxe Insecticons.

Now let's look at some Transformers from the 21st Century...

We can see that many of the features that became standardised in Beast Wars has remained standardised in toys today. Yeah okay, Mach Alert has some issues with the door hinges and the weapon incorporation isn't the best (unless you like police cars with jets on their strobe lights ), but many of the other Car Robot toys incorporate them better. Speedbreaker would've probably been a better example, but you get the idea. I also love how Mach Alert's feet become car seats and we can see some interior detailing on the door panels etc. I've said "semi standard" for Mach Alert because, as mentioned before, much of the Car Robot line was fleshed out with older G1 and G2 moulds because it was cheap to do so (Takara's dwindling spending on TFs in the early 2000s is a whole 'nuther discussion). Cybertron Hot Shot is standard fair for a mid 2000s TF and Refraktor is fairly typical of a TF design today. We can see that many of the features that became standardised by BW remain standardised in Transformers today.

Honourable Mention: Transformers Armada
Because Armada gave us another lasting legacy. The standardisation of the 5mm weapon post. It's not a new thing, toys like 1984's Optimus Prime, Soundwave, the Cassettes and the Jets all have 5mm post weapons too, but Armada made it standard. Across all of the Unicron Trilogy line I can only think of 2 non-Mini-Con Transformers who don't have 5mm fist holes; Energon Grimlock and Swoop (widely considered the low point of the UT). Now Transformers did move away from this for a while but I think it was around 2011 that they went back to it with things like Mech Tech and now almost every Transformer has 5mm weapon posts and fist holes. The fact that CHUG Targetmasters can hold G1 Nebulans and vice versa, or that any CHUG Optimus Prime can hold G1 Optimus Prime's guns shows how far back this gimmick goes, but it hasn't been until around 2011 that it became a standard feature.

Look, I'm not saying that BW was the only major turning point in TF history, but as I said before, it was the Renaissance because it came about when Transformers was dying. The toys just were not selling. BW changed all this, just as the Renaissance did to modern society (giving rise to things like the scientific method etc.). Now it's not to say that science didn't exist before the Renaissance, but science as we know it today came from the Renaissance. And contemporary science has changed a lot since Renaissance science (miasma, anyone? ), but the Renaissance was the big game changer as knowledge from Greeks that had been lost to the West was reacquired from the Muslim Golden Age.

Yes, there have been many other post-BW innovations (e.g. standardisation of the 5mm post), but these came about at a time when the Transformers brand was healthy. Sure, Bayformers came along and massively boosted Transformers. We know that Transformers toy sales doubled after the 2007 movie line came out. That's no small feat! But Transformers was not a dead or dying franchise in 2007. It wasn't an endangered brand in 2011. I don't mean to diminish these other achievements per se, but the reason why I consider BW to be "the big one" is because Transformers would most likely have died off if not for BW. As you will recall from the mid-90s, despite some really cool toys coming out, people just weren't buying them! Even I only collected about 60 TFs from 1993-95 (that's only about 20 toys per year). G2 was definitely my lowest point in collecting and I'd wager for many others too. And I'd say for many stores, their lowest point in TF sales. That's what really matters, sales. But we know that in just a year after BW came out Transformers became the third best selling action figure line. They clawed their way up to #3 a year after the rebranding after the brand nearly died on its butt. Seriously... we know that vehicular Transformers just weren't selling in the 90s (thanks, Jurassic Park). Hasbro even re-tested the market during the early stages of BW with Machine Wars and we all remember what a massive shelfwarmer that line was! Made people like me who imported* them from the US in 1997 (because at the time they were US KB exclusives) feel really silly when MW toys came out everywhere here in 1999 and just did not sell. Even those exclusive "versus sets" that we had didn't seem to help move the toys much.

Anyway, I think I've said my piece so I'm also ducking out of this convo now.

-------------------------------
*double imported! As I was living in Japan I had my MW toys shipped from the USA to Japan, then when I moved back to Australia, yep, paid for shipping again. Enjoyed bragging rights at fan meets in 1998 but then lost all said rights by 1999. D'oh! Oh yeah, fan meets became a thing after BW. Never met up with fans during G2, and again, I tried. I did attend real life meets from online communities. Remember the early 90s when 99% of netizens were goths? I would often stick out like a sore thumb as the one non-goth in attendance... there would be passer-bys asking if we were attending a funeral. <grins>

[BigTransformerTrev]

Trev is quoting me out of context (despite my attempt to clarify my meaning).

Errr, I really don't believe I did, I'd like to think I was being quite accurate really.

As for the rest - waaaay TL: DR. I'm not trying to be dismissive but I genuinely don't have time to read it. The only reason I’m even commenting now is you mentioned me

The amount of effort and time you will go to rather than simply concede a point is astounding - I’ll grant ya that. You obviously feel very strongly about the issue. If it’s any consolation, I genuinely didn’t intend for us to get to this point with the discussion - best we both just walk away. I'm sure neither you nor I have any desire for this to 'heat up' further.

And Beast Wars is cool and I’m still glad you still enjoy it to this day

[GoktimusPrime]

Errr, I really don't believe I did, I'd like to think I was being quite accurate really.

As for the rest - waaaay TL: DR. I'm not trying to be dismissive but I genuinely don't have time to read it. The only reason I’m even commenting now is you mentioned me

Yes, you did. If you had read my last post which further clarified what I meant you would know this. If you would like to continue this conversation then I would recommend that you read my last post comprehensively, otherwise please do step away (and I will do likewise)

[BigTransformerTrev]

Well so much for trying to being nice and extend an olive branch

[Krayt]

Well so much for trying to being nice and extend an olive branch

It’s because it wasn’t recognised... try a Olea europaea branch next time...