Transformers questions by newbies, and not-so-newbies

[GoktimusPrime]

I made this graphic back when people were people were complaining about the look of MP Ironhide. This is what toy designers are trying to emulate...

Only one small portion of the vehicle mode - the front - remains visible in robot mode. The rest of the vehicle disappears into thin freakin' air in robot mode. In reality mass cannot be created or destroyed (re: Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy). This is why fans came up with the idea of mass-shifting in TF fiction to explain how Transformers can change sizes between transformations (e.g. Megatron, Soundwave, Reflector etc.) - mass is displaced, but not generated nor eradicated.

So this means that IRL all this mass must go somewhere in robot mode. Your two options are:
1. Make the excess mass detachable. This is what the G1 and Timelines toys did. A good bulk of the vehicle was detachable and transformed into mobile platforms.
2. Incorporate the excess mass into the robot mode - self contain it. This is what CHUGUR and MP Ratchethide have done. Obviously the MPs have achieved it at a greater level, but of course they are newer toys, larger toys and also $100 dearer.

I still challenge anyone to show me any other toy, aside from MPs, who have been able to achieve this marvel of engineering as CHUGUR Ratchethide. Because comparing them with many other toys isn't necessarily fair because those toys aren't trying to achieve the same thing that CHUGUR Ratchethide have achieved.

Personally I'd say my personal issues are.

- Panel lines vehicle mode are ugly.

Fair point, but it's a trade-off for having these toys self-contain all of their vehicle parts. At only a Deluxe size and budget/price point, you're not going to be able to make the vehicle modes look as smooth as the MPs. The alternative is to make half the vehicle detach, in which case you might as well stick with FunPub/Timelines Ratchethide. I own Timelines Ironhide BTW and I much prefer the Henkei toy.

- Face sculpt is not good

That's subjective. I like the face sculpts, but it's a matter of personal taste. I don't think it's inherently bad though. The downward facing heads do bug me - someone at HasTak had a thing for it at the time. Universe Silverbolt suffered from the same thing too... weird.

- Massive backpack

Again, physics.

- Mushroom pegs are problematic

Yeah. I'll grant that this could've been done better. Mine don't seem to be as problematic as others, but I must admit that they're not perfectly solid either.

Again, I'm not saying that these are perfect toys - they do have their flaws. But I still think that, considering the craziness of what they were trying to achieve, they are still FANTASTIC toys. Even if you think that they've been completely outclassed by their MP counterparts, I still really like them because I judge toys by the standards of their day, not by standards of their future. Because if I were to judge all toys by today's standards, then G1 is utter rubbish.

Another question I may pose is - how else would you have expected HasTak to have engineered this mould? Physical flaws like creating a tighter mushroom peg, having the heads face forwards etc. - okay, totally fair calls. But I don't see how they could've avoided other things like the backpack kibble or the seams on the sides of the vehicles (not without making them shellformers). Even MP Ratchethide still have some visible kibble on the robot mode, e.g. hip panels, bum wheels etc. - it's just not possible to completely conceal everything (at least, not unless you wanna pay $300 per figure).

[FatalityPitt]

I might get grilled, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I confess, I don't have the Universe/Henkei Ratchet or Ironhide, but from what I've seen, it was a pretty good mould for it's time despite it's short-comings. The design is nearly a decade old now, but it was the best possible representation of Ratchet/Ironhide they could make within budget using late-2000's technology.. To put it elegantly, the problem with the toy now is that it's dated.

Toy technology and design methodologies have improved over the last decade, and quite a number of characters have benefited from it. For example, the Classics Deluxe Rodimus was the best representation of Rodimus/Hot Rod when it was first released in 2006. But The Titans Return Hot Rod (released in 2015) is a much better toy. But the reason TR Hot Rod is superior (even without the Headmaster gimmick) is because of the experience acquired over the last 10 years being invested in it. I know, it's like comparing apples with oranges because of the Titanmaster gimmick and all - but do you think Hasbro/Takara could have made a toy like TR Hot Rod back in 2006? If they could make a new deluxe Hot Rod/Rodimus without any gimmicks, would they make it exactly like Classics Rodimus, or recycle some of the engineering used in TR Hot Rod?

Universe/Henkei Ratchet and Ironhide aren't the best toys in the world, but they were good for their time. Perhaps we need a newer and more updated deluxe Ratchet/Ironhide using some of the techniques used in Combiner Wars / Titans Return (Not Counting Off-Road/First Aid retools).

EDIT: Just wanna add - before Combiner Wars, this was the closest possible thing to a Neo-Classics Superion.

[DELTAprime]

I made this graphic back when people were people were complaining about the look of MP Ironhide. This is what toy designers are trying to emulate...

Only one small portion of the vehicle mode - the front - remains visible in robot mode. The rest of the vehicle disappears into thin freakin' air in robot mode. In reality mass cannot be created or destroyed (re: Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy). This is why fans came up with the idea of mass-shifting in TF fiction to explain how Transformers can change sizes between transformations (e.g. Megatron, Soundwave, Reflector etc.) - mass is displaced, but not generated nor eradicated.

So this means that IRL all this mass must go somewhere in robot mode. Your two options are:
1. Make the excess mass detachable. This is what the G1 and Timelines toys did. A good bulk of the vehicle was detachable and transformed into mobile platforms.
2. Incorporate the excess mass into the robot mode - self contain it. This is what CHUGUR and MP Ratchethide have done. Obviously the MPs have achieved it at a greater level, but of course they are newer toys, larger toys and also $100 dearer.

I still challenge anyone to show me any other toy, aside from MPs, who have been able to achieve this marvel of engineering as CHUGUR Ratchethide. Because comparing them with many other toys isn't necessarily fair because those toys aren't trying to achieve the same thing that CHUGUR Ratchethide have achieved.


Fair point, but it's a trade-off for having these toys self-contain all of their vehicle parts. At only a Deluxe size and budget/price point, you're not going to be able to make the vehicle modes look as smooth as the MPs. The alternative is to make half the vehicle detach, in which case you might as well stick with FunPub/Timelines Ratchethide. I own Timelines Ironhide BTW and I much prefer the Henkei toy.


That's subjective. I like the face sculpts, but it's a matter of personal taste. I don't think it's inherently bad though. The downward facing heads do bug me - someone at HasTak had a thing for it at the time. Universe Silverbolt suffered from the same thing too... weird.

Again, physics.

Yeah. I'll grant that this could've been done better. Mine don't seem to be as problematic as others, but I must admit that they're not perfectly solid either.

Again, I'm not saying that these are perfect toys - they do have their flaws. But I still think that, considering the craziness of what they were trying to achieve, they are still FANTASTIC toys. Even if you think that they've been completely outclassed by their MP counterparts, I still really like them because I judge toys by the standards of their day, not by standards of their future. Because if I were to judge all toys by today's standards, then G1 is utter rubbish.

Another question I may pose is - how else would you have expected HasTak to have engineered this mould? Physical flaws like creating a tighter mushroom peg, having the heads face forwards etc. - okay, totally fair calls. But I don't see how they could've avoided other things like the backpack kibble or the seams on the sides of the vehicles (not without making them shellformers). Even MP Ratchethide still have some visible kibble on the robot mode, e.g. hip panels, bum wheels etc. - it's just not possible to completely conceal everything (at least, not unless you wanna pay $300 per figure).

Why do you feel the need to defend Hasbro and Takara??? They are not perfect, sometimes they make toys that are not great and you don't need to go on post after post defending them. There is no law that said they had to go down the design route they did with Universe/Henkei Ironhide/Ratchet. They could have strayed from the G1 look and gone with something a bit different that made a much better toy. Universe Onslaught (Ultra not Legends) bears little resemblance to his G1 version and he's a really good toy because of it yet still evokes G1 Onslaught with his silhouette.

[kurdt_the_goat]

No one's really arguing that Universe Ratchet isn't a better toy (or better value) than the RiD Ratchet are they? People are just saying they don't like that it that much, and they're also not disagreeing that it wasn't some clever engineering either. I'd say most people just prefer the Sunstreaker, Hound and Prowl moulds from around that time. Ironhide might have involved more wizardry, but it's ok if people don't like the end result as much.

Having said all that, I think my favourite engineering of that time was Cyclonus. He hides the entire front of the aircraft in his chest like it was never there, has no kibble or problems to speak of other than perhaps a gappy back of plane.

I don't know what the point of bringing up the G1 toy is, because that was a thing before the cartoon. Presumably they originally made the platform detach for play value not because of some inherent difficulty in turning that particular car into (at this time), any particular look for the robot. Likewise, Tow-Line was designed to be his own particular thing while paying a bit of homage to the G1 characters.

Universe Ratchet being the first time where their main goal was to approximate the G1 cartoon's robot look doesn't particularly suggest that it was all that challenging for them to do. And i'd argue, they could easily do a low budget Ratchet that had a similar transformation scheme to the MP, which transformed into a G1 style van. At the time and still to a degree now, the Universe line wasn't 100% in on G1 accuracy, hence the different car design compared to G1. They could have done it if they wanted to though. Think Titan Returns Hot Rod compared with the MP. MP Hot Rod basically has Titan Returns legs! I can even think of deluxes around that time that are arguably more complex in design/part count than some MPs, say WfC Optimus Prime.

Honestly, after seeing MP Megatron, I just don't think they would find any kind of "cartoon magic" transformation all that difficult to achieve. These guys have been designing transforming toys for years and routinely hit it out of the park on their first attempts in the MP line.

[DELTAprime]

^ Thanks Kurdt for putting it much better than I can.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Pfft, Universe Ironhide and Ratchet don't even have their battle platforms/repair bays.

[GoktimusPrime]

Why do you feel the need to defend Hasbro and Takara??? They are not perfect, sometimes they make toys that are not great and you don't need to go on post after post defending them.

Uh...

Are they perfect? No.

Again, I'm not saying that these are perfect toys - they do have their flaws.

And I don't mind if you think that they're crap moulds, but I was curious to know why you think that they're so terrible. I never said you were wrong - ultimately good and bad are subjective notions which vary according to our personal standards.

Ironhide might have involved more wizardry, but it's ok if people don't like the end result as much.

And that's fine, but I'm just saying that even if you don't like the end result you may still at least appreciate the effort that was put into this mould and what they were trying to achieve. Appreciation is not necessarily the same as liking or disliking something.

I don't know what the point of bringing up the G1 toy is, because that was a thing before the cartoon. Presumably they originally made the platform detach for play value not because of some inherent difficulty in turning that particular car into (at this time), any particular look for the robot. Likewise, Tow-Line was designed to be his own particular thing while paying a bit of homage to the G1 characters.

You're right, but I just mentioned those toys in terms of where the excess vehicle bulk could be put if not incorporated into the core figure itself. Those toys did it because they were never aiming to achieve G1 cartoon likeness for the reasons you mentioned. Although a show-accurate Ratchethide could potentially have a detachable platform as it is in their cartoon models. It's just that animators only ever showed it once for Ratchet and never showed it for Ironhide. But I suppose consequently this has become "visual canon" for these characters (much like how Grapple's crane was misinterpreted by animators as additional bulk behind his legs - this has become "visual canon" and the MP35 toy's engineering reflects this by shifting additional bulk to the back of the legs and entirely collapsing the crane-arm into the torso).

The Diaclone figures had detachable platforms because those figures were meant to be power armours which deliver additional munitions/equipment to other Diaclone mecha. They were basically support mecha for the main Car Robot mecha. This is also why they have no heads, because they're meant to be like beefy power armours (similar to what Ripley used in Aliens or what we see some humans using in Avatar etc.) rather than properly piloted mecha in the traditional sense.

And i'd argue, they could easily do a low budget Ratchet that had a similar transformation scheme to the MP, which transformed into a G1 style van. At the time and still to a degree now, the Universe line wasn't 100% in on G1 accuracy, hence the different car design compared to G1. They could have done it if they wanted to though. Think Titan Returns Hot Rod compared with the MP. MP Hot Rod basically has Titan Returns legs! I can even think of deluxes around that time that are arguably more complex in design/part count than some MPs, say WfC Optimus Prime.

Oh yeah, I'm sure they could have, but I think that it was simply easier for them to do it with a long nose vehicle mode. BTW, the Ratchethide mould came out in 2008, a good 2-3 years before WFC OP or MP9 (with the latter being a far bigger/dearer toy), and 8 years before TR Hot Rod. And you're right, they didn't have to try and give us a more show-accurate robot mode with Ratchethide, but I think that they did it because they wanted to. It was at very least a forerunner to what we see in MP Ratchethide (and we know that the MP and BT lines were initially inspired by Deluxe class toys from TF Car Robot back in 2000).

Honestly, after seeing MP Megatron, I just don't think they would find any kind of "cartoon magic" transformation all that difficult to achieve. These guys have been designing transforming toys for years and routinely hit it out of the park on their first attempts in the MP line.

Yes, but bear in mind at a VERY high price point. Remember that MP36 is more than double (x2.235 to be precise) the price of MP5 or nearly 10 times (x9.96) the price of Henkei Ratchethide!
I love MP36, don't get me wrong, but also don't forget that it is a damn expensive toy. By far one of the most expensive toys that I've ever purchased (rivalled only by Cityformers like Generations Metroplex and any toy whose name ends with "Maximus").

It's easy to point at bigger and more expensive toys like MPs and say, "Well they did a better job." Yeah, of course they did. Hence why I said...

I still challenge anyone to show me any other toy, aside from MPs, who have been able to achieve this marvel of engineering as CHUGUR Ratchethide.

I take your point with CHUGUR Cyclonus and TR Hot Rod (I also really love Cyclonus, such a fantastic mould! ), but these toys are hiding far less vehicle parts than what we're talking about with Ratchethide. Also, a jet is a far less bulky vehicle to conceal into a robot - they tend to have the reverse problem, how to conceal the robot parts in jet mode. And as you've pointed out, Cyclonus does suffer with the gappy rear because that's where they've attempted to use the legs to form the aft. Cyclonus isn't perfect, but its flaws doesn't take away the overall awesomeness of that mould for me, and similarly while I fully admit that Ratchethide has its flaws, they too don't take away the overall greatness of that mould for me.

There's no such thing as a perfect toy. Even MP36 has its shortcomings, but at the end of the day we weigh up the pros and cons of these toys and then decide if these toys are worth the money that we pay for this. This is why the standard format for the toy review polls doesn't ask us, "Do you like this toy?" It doesn't ask, "Is this toy any good?" - it asks one important question - "Is this toy worth buying?"

I'm not at all saying that Ratchethide is the perfect figure, don't get me wrong. But what I'm saying is that - IMHO - I think that they were worth the 2494JPY (approx. AU$30) that I paid for them. As opposed to the buyer's remorse that I feel after paying $29 for The Last Knight Deluxe Class Berserker.

[DELTAprime]

I really don't get why you seem to prize engineering over everything else and seem to be taking the side of engineering makes a toy better, it's alien to me. So anyway, you want to know why I don't like them, here's what I think makes a good mould.

A Transformer is a toy is not a Formula 1 car and should be easily enjoyable with well balanced priority between alt mode, puzzle and robot not a master class in engineering like aforementioned Formula 1 car. Here's how I would sum up as few toys both as far as looks, play and engineering.

The Good: Henkei Starscream (This is one of my favourite moulds of all time)
Alt mode: Great plane, I challenge anyone not to have fun with it. Just don't poke out an eye with those really powerful missiles.
Transformation: Intuitive, fast and simple but not too simple. Engineering perfection.
Robot: It doesn't just evoke G1 Starscream like many Classics figures, it was the best representation of G1 Starscream to that point in time and may still be if you're not a fan of MP-11's looks. Not to mention it's a really fun robot with almost perfect articulation.
They got the perfect balance in all 3 aspects.

The middle of the road: Unite Warriors Ratchet (this is my canonical Neo-G1 Ratchet till something better comes along)
Alt mode: Looks like a tough armoured ambulance, pegs together perfectly. It doesn't evoke G1 Ratchet, but it's a good modern take.
Transformation: Really simplistic to the point it's not fun or rewarding, but at least it's fast. Engineered for cheapness.
Robot: Despite being designed as a generic CW toy to choice of remoulding and paint does a great job of looking like G1 Ratchet with a modern take. The robot is well engineered as a robot toy and is fun with good articulation.
Terrible puzzle but the alt mode is really solid and the robot is like a B+.

The bad: Henkei Ratchet (note I am ignoring the fact the chrome on mine is disintegrating like other toys of the period and it's yellowing, darn you white plastic)
Alt Mode: After playing with him a little tonight I really feel like this a weak mode because of previously mentioned panel lines, but there is also a section of plastic just missing from the mould at the rear left and right of the side window area, huh? Also pegs together horribly if everything isn't lined up 100% perfect limiting the fun and adding to frustration, so onto transformation.
Transformation: Going to car mode this is a rather fiddly mould as mentioned before, while somewhat intuitive to someone like me with decades of experience with Transformers I bet there are those that can't intuitit. Going in both directions with the transformation the mushroom pegs are a problem and should have been designed out with a pin.
Robot: While yes it does evoke G1 Ratchet with his silhouette the face doesn't pass for the mostly, happy, sometimes cracky G1 Ratchet they are emulating. The head looks down slightly which could have been taken care of in development. Articulation is good like the previously mentioned toys but the mushroom peg problem makes him more annoying than the others above. Also I feel the bulkiness of the mould suits Ironhide slightly more than Ratchet. Backpack could have been handled better with a different Transformation. It's not a bad robot mode, but it's not good either, somewhere in between.
Overall I feel they went overboard on engineering and complexity and it lets down the alt mode and complicates the transformation. Sometimes a simpler design or going about the design from another angle can lead to better results.

BTW Gok, if you want to know what I think about something in the future, ask it very directly. I'm Dyslexic and Autistic so I don't read between the lines well so to speak.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's easier for other toys to achieve the balance that you speak of when they aren't presented with the insurmountable challenge that was placed before CHUG Ratchethide. Hence these are not really fair comparisons because they aren't achieving the same thing that Ratchethide tried to achieve.

Let's look at how much of CHUG Starscream's jet mode is absorbed into his robot mode.
* Intake ramps: unmoved - they become shoulder pylons
* Nosecone: back-mounted kibble
* Cockpit: absorbed into body becoming centrepiece of chest
* Canopy: unchanged - opens and closes to allow cockpit to enter but resets to original position
* Engines & thrusters: unmoved - becomes kibble on back of lower legs and heels
* Stabilisers: folded and pivoted - becomes ankle mounted kibble
* Wings: flips 180 degrees and hangs as back-mounted kibble
And of course, this is accurate to the look of G1 Starscream. So because G1 Starscream never absorbed these parts into the robot mode. Both G1 and CHUG Starscream also have comparable robot kibble in jet mode. So there's relatively far less "absorption" (or more accurately, incorporation) of parts across modes. The robot mode shows a lot of visible jet parts.

Now let's look at Ratchethide:
* Front grill: absorbed into the rear-mounted backpack kibble (RMBK)
* Bonnet: absorbed with the centre in the RMBK and the sides absorbed as the shins
* Windscreen: absorbed via RMBK
* Driver & passenger side windows: absorbed via RMBK
* Roof: absorbed with the front half via the RMBK and the rear half forming the top of the chest
* Front wheels & front side panels: side-mounted leg kibble
* Doors: Half are absorbed via RMBK with other parts become split - about a quarter are absorbed into the feet and a quarter becoming arm panel kibble
* Centre side windows: absorbed into body
* Rear bumper: absorbed into body
* Rear wheels and panels: absorbed into body
* Remaining rear section of vehicle: absorbed into body becoming chest

So as we can see, Ratchethide has a far higher amount of parts absorption than Starscream or practically any other Transformer outside of the Masterpiece line. Now you could say that this is precisely the reason behind much of this mould's weakness and you wouldn't be wrong.

Or let me put it another way - let's compare BT v MP Lambor/Sideswipe, and considering that both of these toys sold at roughly the same price point.
+ BT = die cast metal parts v. MP = all plastic
+ BT = rubber tyres v. MP = plastic tyres
+ BT = bonnet opens revealing internal engine v. MP = nope
+ BT = boot opens v. MP = nope
+ BT = doors open v. MP = nope
+ BT = highly detailed interior (insert descriptive paragraph) v. MP = nope
+ BT = chrome hubcaps v. MP = painted silver hubcaps
+ BT = chrome engine block which transforms into gun v. MP = nope. Guns are detachable accessories which can be mounted to the roof
+ BT = working rack and pinion steering v. MP = nope
+ BT = transparent plastic head, tail and indicator lights v. MP = painted lights
+ BT = fully articulated robot mode v. MP = yep
+ MP = G1 cartoon-accurate robot mode v. BT = nope

And you might compare BT Skids (which many fans have speculated was preconceived to be later redecoed as BT Ironhide) with MP Ironhide and make a similar comparison. So you could very well argue that the MPs are inferior toys compared to their BT counterparts. But ultimately the MPs are trying to achieve something which the BTs never did - G1 accuracy. BTs are more like your earlier CHUG toys (e.g. Mirage, Onslaught etc.) - they look iconic enough to be recognisable as the character, but they're not trying to emulate the G1 look completely. MPs are more like more recent CHUGURs (e.g. TR Sixshot, CW Constructicons etc.) - a slavish level of detail in emulating G1. And this level of emulation does present a serious challenge to designers.

Whether you're for or against overt G1 accuracy is up to your personal taste, but despite all the things that the MP Cars don't achieve that BTs do, a lot of people still love the MP Cars because they offer something that BTs don't - visual fidelity with G1. Now some people might be saying, "You can't compare BTs w/ MPs, it's apples and oranges," and they'd be absolutely correct. And this is how I feel about comparing CHUG Ratchethide with toys like CHUG Starscream et al. - it's apples and oranges. The only toys that I can even begin to compare CHUG Ratchethide with are MPs.

[DELTAprime]

The only toys that I can even begin to compare CHUG Ratchethide with are MPs.

????????? Henkei Ratchet is not an MP, it's a Deluxe Class CHUG figure. How exactly is it an MP?