THE OTCA Philosophy & Ethics Thread.

[Golden Phoenix]

Timaeaus and Critias? I loved reading Plato. I wrote an essay on those forms, as well as the orbits of the spheres (I'm having difficulty remembering a lot of the top of my head).

Read a bit of the republic, and something else. It was a few years ago so memory is a bit shady, and even then, it was only extracts of it

[SofaMan]

I think this could be interesting. Never done any formal study in philosophy, but picked up quite a bit through general reading.

Can I take the liberty and get us started? I thought we could start with a big one - the nature of the spark.

With Transformers, we don't have to argue about the existence of a soul-analogue, since we see them. They seem to be both the animating force and persona of a TF. To the extent that they are the 'mind' of a TF, to what extent are they affected by their body?

The old Cartesian mind-body dualism is a bit of a dead end, since we know that they are not separate stuff, but intimately connected; one cannot exist without the other, and both are modified by the circumstances of the other. Our minds change due the physical stimuli of pain, hunger, hormones, etc.

What of TFs? Can they change bodies completely and retain the same personal characteristics? For example, take Megatron's spark and put it in Ravage's body:

1) Would it work?
2) If it worked, would Megatron's persona change, due to being in a completely different body designed for different movement and capabilities.
3) If it wouldn't change, why not?
4) If it would change, in what ways might he be different?

[GoktimusPrime]

Canonical evidence shows that the Spark generally retains complete aspects of the individual - both when transferred from one shell (body) to another, and also between transition from life to afterlife (Allspark) and back. This was repeatedly shown in Beast Wars and Beast Machines, e.g.: Optimus Primal, Megatron.

However, evidence also shows that when the Spark undergoes some kind of trauma or is influenced ('tampered') by external factors, then the individual aspect of that Spark can be altered. e.g.: Tigatron & Airazor (and later Tigerhawk), BM Jetstorm, Tankor and Thrust, et al. In G1 when Optimus Prime was killed, Ethan Zachary downloaded his core consciousness into a floppy diskette, allowing Prime to survive as a digital entity. Prime suffered severe memory loss which Zachary attempted to restore with very limited success; it was only through Nebulan science that his mind was fully restored and Prime himself was rebuilt as Powermaster Optimus Prime.

Starscream's indestructible mutant spark is an anomaly of course, and retains its full complete consciousness across time and space.

In the G1 cartoon, the Transformers that became Headmasters transferred their consciousnesses into their reserve memory modules in their chests (how convenient). In the G1 comics, the minds of some Nebulans and their Transformer partners eventually merged - e.g.: Fortress Maximus & Spike, Scorponok & Zarak, Optimus Prime & Hi-Q. Then there's Masterforce's Headmaster Juniors; Transtectors with dormant consciousnesses.

Another thing is also the minds of gestalts... some work better than others, often depending on how well the individual members feel about each other. Devastator's mind is muddled because the Constructicons have such conflicting thoughts. Menasor is similarly confused because all the Stunticons hate Motormaster. Most Autobot gestalt teams get along better with each other and thus their gestalt forms are usually more mentally stable.

[SofaMan]

Well, herein lies some of the issues. Based on what evidence there is, TFs seem to have a pure form of mind/body dualism i.e. the persona and animus/anemos are totally distinct and separable from the shell.

But does that, or should that, work? Caveat - obviously it's a fictional storyline and they can invent whatever rules they think best create a good story to sell more toys. Trying to create a consistent set of rules around what has come out of 25 year of TF stories created by dozens of people over 9 or 10 TF lines is not going to work, though we can draw some general consistencies.

That said, can we try to fit some of those general consistencies into an epistemological framework that makes sense in terms of what we know about consciousness?

What intriguing story possibilities could come out of, for instance, putting Megatron's mind into Ravage's body? Is it reasonable to expect that his behaviour would not change?

What really goes on inside the gestalt consciousness of a combiner when combined? I'm reminded of some storytelling in Doom Patrol that took place inside Crazy Jane's mind - she suffered from multiple personalities, and had to create a framework for managing their input. The framework that worked for her was a railway network, with each persona as a station or node.

Not a lot of answers, but I hope some interesting questions.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

On this topic, I'm a little intrigued as to the influence of 'mingling sparks' and shell programs in BW.
BW Megs doesn't seem to change all that much besides with G1 Megatrons' spark, the only possible instance I can think of is wasting the fusion blast on the protohuman village, which isn't in keeping with his generally practical, business-first approach. Then again, in the first episode he toys with the Axalon rather than destroy the Maximals outright, so it could go either way. It's also hard to see how Optimal Optimus changes besides the voice - anyone notice any major changes in characterisation when he's carrying Prime's spark?

Shell programs, on the other hand, seem to have a long-lasting effect on the personality of their 'host' (for lack of a better term). Blackarachnia retains her bad-girl attitude even after having it purged - would this suggest that shell programs alter the spark of the beings they're implanted in? Then again, Rattrap isn't exactly a saint, and he's a natural Maximal. Quickstrike isn't 'tampered with' prior to activation, yet he's a violent treacherous nutcase...hmm.

[GoktimusPrime]

Well, herein lies some of the issues. Based on what evidence there is, TFs seem to have a pure form of mind/body dualism i.e. the persona and animus/anemos are totally distinct and separable from the shell.

Canonical evidence seems to point at the persona being a completely distinct and separable entity from the shell. Beast Machines shows Sparks as being independent of the shell.

But does that, or should that, work?

I don't see why not. As a machine species I suppose the Transformers' consciousnesses are essentially digital cyber entities and as such free and independent of whatever body they are inhabiting. Kinda similar to Agent Smith in the Matrix - when he crossed over into the body of a human, his mind was still completely himself.

What intriguing story possibilities could come out of, for instance, putting Megatron's mind into Ravage's body? Is it reasonable to expect that his behaviour would not change?

If it's only Megatron's Spark in Ravage's body then I'd say that there would be no real change in Megatron's persona.

Evidence does show that a persona can alter if a spark is 'contaminated' - such as with Transmetal II Dinobot.

What really goes on inside the gestalt consciousness of a combiner when combined? I'm reminded of some storytelling in Doom Patrol that took place inside Crazy Jane's mind - she suffered from multiple personalities, and had to create a framework for managing their input. The framework that worked for her was a railway network, with each persona as a station or node.

BW Megs doesn't seem to change all that much besides with G1 Megatrons' spark, the only possible instance I can think of is wasting the fusion blast on the protohuman village, which isn't in keeping with his generally practical, business-first approach. Then again, in the first episode he toys with the Axalon rather than destroy the Maximals outright, so it could go either way. It's also hard to see how Optimal Optimus changes besides the voice - anyone notice any major changes in characterisation when he's carrying Prime's spark?

No, neither character really changed (persona-wise) when holding the Sparks of their G1 namesakes. I'd say because their shells already had an occupying Spark and they were merely holding another Spark, but not allowing the other Spark to actually access their shells. It seems to be a very dangerous thing to do though.

Shell programs, on the other hand, seem to have a long-lasting effect on the personality of their 'host' (for lack of a better term). Blackarachnia retains her bad-girl attitude even after having it purged - would this suggest that shell programs alter the spark of the beings they're implanted in? Then again, Rattrap isn't exactly a saint, and he's a natural Maximal. Quickstrike isn't 'tampered with' prior to activation, yet he's a violent treacherous nutcase...hmm.

Well who knows what Blackarachnia would've been like if her Spark had never been tampered with by Tarantulas.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

So were they each 'holding' their namesake's sparks, or actually 'mingling' them? Primal seems to call it holding, but Megs claims to be mingling and thus some sort of alteration would presumably be taking place.
Where's Ben Yee when I need him?

I guess another interesting point on this would be that Quickstrike and Silverbolt would arguably be the only 2 examples of an 'uncontaminated' (by Maximal/Predacon programming) Spark either way, showing quite a lot of room for protoform variation in their 'natural state' even accounting for the influence of their beast forms. Yet supposedly the Maximals and Predacons are different sub-species/races descended from the 'bots and 'cons respectively, which would (one would think) impart a certain 'basic nature' to their 'blank slate' personalities.

I've got a headache...

[SofaMan]

If it's only Megatron's Spark in Ravage's body then I'd say that there would be no real change in Megatron's persona.

Evidence does show that a persona can alter if a spark is 'contaminated' - such as with Transmetal II Dinobot.

I'm not really seeking a canonical or definitive answer here. I'm well aware of all the examples you cite. I suppose I'm seeking to extend the debate a bit, and really consider whether TFs' personas should be more influenced by the shell in which they find themselves, and be less of an immutable 'ghost in the machine'. The philosophical discussion is pretty short if we just say "Sparks don't change". While there's always going to be some suspension of disbelief, I see no reason why we shouldn't explore how these ideas might function within a more real-world context.

We all see how clumsy teenagers get as their brains adapt to changing bodies. Is it reasonable to expect that TFs would not go through the same thing?