THE OTCA Philosophy & Ethics Thread.

[Sky Shadow]

Conversely, if the body changes, so must the persona. Only the BW continuity made any recognition of this.

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines. Even though 'sparks' weren't called by that name until Beast Wars, presumably they have always existed. Do Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge still have the same sparks as Megatron, Bombshell and Thundercracker? Does Rodimus Prime have the same spark as Hot Rod? If so, their sparks' behaviour does seem to be clearly affected by their physical shells (or yes, by Unicron and the Matrix). In the Marvel comics, after G1 Ratchet turned Goldbug into Pretender Bumblebee, Bumblebee became more confident, a consequence of other Autobots looking to him for leadership on the battlefield for the first time (as stated in 'Yesterday's Heroes!') This suggests that Transformers' personalities are affected by their physical shell... so to speak. And even in these comics, in which the Decepticons were not speciesist or sizeist about themselves (they took orders from Ratbat as readily as from Shockwave, Scorponok or Megatron), I still find it unlikely that Megatron would be the same Megatron if he were in Ravage's diminutive quadrupedal body. (And I don't even want to get into the Straxus's-mind-in-Megatron's-clone thing, because that whole storyline does my head in as readily as it did his.)

In Beast Machines, Waspinator, Silverbolt and Rhinox became polar opposites in the bodies of Thrust, Jetstorm and Tankor. This could be a result of Megatron's 'shell programs', but both Thrust and Tankor demonstrate at times that they are in fact still the same 'person', they've just chosen to behave completely differently in their new bodies. Also, like G1 Bumblebee, Transformers are influenced both by their impressions of themselves and the impressions of others. Beast Machines Megatron was the same 'person' when he was a bestial dragon, diagnostic drone, an 'Optimal' Optimus and a BFHead. But he behaved and saw himself differently in all these forms (with disgust, embarrassment, kinky satisfaction and bwahahahaha-ness! Respectively.) And the Maximals reacted to Megatron differently depending on his form too.

Transformers history is full of examples where the same spark in a different body behaves differently. This could be for technological reasons or it could merely be the psychological result of feeling more confident or less so depending on one's current physical form.

[SofaMan]

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines.

[snip]

Transformers history is full of examples where the same spark in a different body behaves differently. This could be for technological reasons or it could merely be the psychological result of feeling more confident or less so depending on one's current physical form.

Quite right too. Though I confess the examples you raised slipped my mind because I was thinking explicitly of sparks, and overlooked those earlier examples where sparks were not directly referenced.

Trying to milk consistency out of G1 though is always going to be problematic, since I don't think it was their biggest concern. For example, the weirdness with Rodimus Prime, who completely reverted, personality and all, to Hot Rod upon returning the Matrix to Optimus Prime. Really?? He didn't even get to keep that wisdom and maturity gained from a position of command?

[GoktimusPrime]

Jetstorm was a completely new persona, but animated by the spark of Silverbolt. This introduces another element to TFs, in that the spark seems to contain separable elements of both the persona and anemos*. Silverbolt was changed as a result of his persona being hijacked by Jetstorm's shell program, causing him to act in a way that was contrary to his (that is Silverbolt's) normal inclinations. When he was 'restored' to being Silverbolt, he had to adjust to things he'd done as Jetstorm, and he became a markedly different character, as though he had awoken from a fugue state, yet had full recall of the choices and actions he had made while in that state.

Jetstorm's shell program wasn't that invasive... as Silverbolt would later lament, it fundamentally just stripped him of his chivalrous sense of honour - which is why Silverbolt felt such intense hatred toward Megatron for having psychologically raped him and also why he went emo and loathed himself for what he had become as Jetstorm.

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines. Even though 'sparks' weren't called by that name until Beast Wars, presumably they have always existed. Do Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge still have the same sparks as Megatron, Bombshell and Thundercracker? Does Rodimus Prime have the same spark as Hot Rod? If so, their sparks' behaviour does seem to be clearly affected by their physical shells (or yes, by Unicron and the Matrix).

We don't know if the Matrix and Unicron also somehow modified or 'contaminated' their Sparks (laser cores) when they were 'upgraded.'

In the Marvel comics, after G1 Ratchet turned Goldbug into Pretender Bumblebee, Bumblebee became more confident, a consequence of other Autobots looking to him for leadership on the battlefield for the first time (as stated in 'Yesterday's Heroes!')

That is true, although he fundamentally still saw himself as being just as "weak and indecisive" as he ever was.

This suggests that Transformers' personalities are affected by their physical shell... so to speak. And even in these comics, in which the Decepticons were not speciesist or sizeist about themselves (they took orders from Ratbat as readily as from Shockwave, Scorponok or Megatron), I still find it unlikely that Megatron would be the same Megatron if he were in Ravage's diminutive quadrupedal body.

Yeah, it's about as zany as a ninja clan taking orders from a little brain, or a galactic empire being commanded by a crusty old prune.

(And I don't even want to get into the Straxus's-mind-in-Megatron's-clone thing, because that whole storyline does my head in as readily as it did his.)

Yeah, but that's because his mind was merged with a copy of Megatron's, which was so powerful that it dominated Straxus' mind leading him to believe that he was actually Megatron. Wow, that is confusing. Anyway, it's another example of a persona being changed due to external trauma/interference (the external factor being the duplicate Megatron mind). Had Straxus perhaps had his mind transferred into a mindless clone of Megatron perhaps... btw, I personally retcon the Straxus-Megatron clone as "Megaplex." To me, my G1 Megaplex toy is that clone. Hence...

Megatron-><-Megaplex

Trying to milk consistency out of G1 though is always going to be problematic, since I don't think it was their biggest concern. For example, the weirdness with Rodimus Prime, who completely reverted, personality and all, to Hot Rod upon returning the Matrix to Optimus Prime. Really?? He didn't even get to keep that wisdom and maturity gained from a position of command?

COSMIC MACGUFFIN'D!