The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[dirge]

I don't think I've dismissed the ethical points. I've tried to address them myself if you have a close look, Dirge. I've pointed out various ethical arguments to counter ethical arguments put forward too. Showing that those points are ethically very questionable themselves.

Okay, let me clarify a little. By saying "It doesn't matter what you feel. It's wrong." is very dismissive of the different points of view and the ethical shades of grey here.

As griffin (and others) have alluded to, there are degrees. And depending on one's own ethics, it is possible to condone some items and not others:

+ Some of the fan-items aren't infringing on copyright (avoiding brand labelling etc) - they're equatable to reverse engineered generic printer cartridges, in essence.

+ Some are infringing - but aren't actually producing an item that HasTak are ever likely to produce themselves, resulting in no loss of income.

+ Some items are produced to suppliment a toy seen as "incomplete", such as the guns for movie Prime. That HasTak later produce another variant with the said gun included makes this one very much a grey area - HasTak could well lose income from this one, but the producer of the add-on accessory may not have intended that.

+ Some items, such as the KOs, are deliberate copyright infringements which are designed to specifically replace HasTak items, and therefore are designed to "steal" profit (so to speak).

It's not "wrong" to produce a fan item - even for profit - while skirting around copyright. I say that because "wrong" is a relative term and it depends on one's ethics. It is "wrong" to produce blatant KOs - the KOers know what they're doing is a flagrant abuse of copyright - they just don't care.

[Hereticpoo]

I dont know about anyone else, But I really, really, really find it hard to believe that KO'ers hurt HasTak bottom lines in any significant way.

I'm pretty sure that anyone who knows the difference between a KO and a genuine toy would go genuine anyday. The G1 Devastator example annoys me because if it were re-issued encore style I'm sure people inclined to buy it would buy it KO or no KO. It's not like hasbro's market (kids) are putiing 25 year old transformers on their Xmas lists.

I don't like KO's. Its not because I want to shed tears for HasTaks pocket abuse, its because they look yukky and they get in the way when you're hunting demonbay for G1 stuff and sometimes you'll get one from demonbay unwittingly. So for me they're an inconveniance.

Fans Kits me Love because infrigements aside these guy have actually R and D'd to make something presentable and at times they give us things that HasTak would never have considered worth their time. Poor Ultra Magnus waited 25 years for some new trousers and finally FP did it. If the mass custom guys have made HasTak stand up and pay attention to what we as hardcore collectors want, that's awesome. And I dont think I'm a hypocryt, because I just dont care about anything as long as I'm happy. I'm a western 18-35 year old male born with consumerism in my blood, the way our western government wants me too be.

[dirge]

I'm pretty sure that anyone who knows the difference between a KO and a genuine toy would go genuine anyday.

There are some fans who will happily buy a "good" copy counterfeit Transformer. They're a minority, I would expect, but there are some out there.

Sadly, the flood of KOs does affect the business decisions of HasTak when it comes to releasing reissues, precisely because the ease with which one can purchase (knowingly or not) a KO on eBay or in certain markets (Hong Kong?) threatens to take away much of the demand for the legit product.

[GoktimusPrime]

I think by only selling to people with a Japanese address takara are doing a fine job of hurting their chances to sell that exclusive.

Not really. As exclusives they're produced in very limited numbers that their domestic market can easily absorb. And that's the whole point of exclusives anyway, it's not much different from say Hasbro selling toys exclusively to OTFCC club members or BotCon attendees.

It pretty much comes down to what Jaydisc has said. I have no problem with either anymore. Given I accept one, I can't all of a sudden rationalise in my own mind it's right to purchase mass-customs when fundamentally they stem from the same infringement. That'd be incredibly hypocritical of me. So yeah, I'm no longer a KO hater (I once was!) but given the change in the landscape, I've had to reassess my own ethics on the matter and I think the conclusion is pretty poignant. Both stem from infringements, both are equally wrong. I can't support one, decry the other.

Are you on one hand saying that you don't have a problem with unlicensed products anymore, but on the otherhand conceding that they're both "equally wrong"? I find it curious that you would personally classify them as "wrong" yet say that you have no problem with them.

To me it all boils down to this great post I didn't credit enough early in the piece:

The model Kits, the weapon sets, the armour sets, Teletran 1, the trailers all results of Hasbro not making a finished product me thinks. Someone pllleeeaaassssseeeeeee make Classics Bruticus hands and feet!!!! The poor guy looks like the alligator from HOOK got to him.

So i guess KOer's/customisers think....i'll just do it myself because HasTak cant / wont.

If the customisers will give me what Hasbro wont then i really dont care who's profitting. Its a Sh!t thing to say but dems the cards we're dealt!

And I'm perfectly comfortable with that position.

So are you saying that the ends justify the means?

I dont know about anyone else, But I really, really, really find it hard to believe that KO'ers hurt HasTak bottom lines in any significant way.

Remember that the majority of people who buy Transformer toys are parents for their children. If your child wanted a Transformer and you found the same toy that was a counterfeit, but sold at a much cheaper price, which would you go for? How many adults knowingly buy bootlegged DVDs and games for their children because it's cheaper than buying the real thing? Most console games I played with as a kid were KOs; especially those cartidges with like 1000 games in 1.

[Gutsman Heavy]

Not really. As exclusives they're produced in very limited numbers that their domestic market can easily absorb. And that's the whole point of exclusives anyway, it's not much different from say Hasbro selling toys exclusively to OTFCC club members or BotCon attendees.

very true, my point (as badly as it was made now that I've re-read it) was that I doubt the 3rd party crown (made for a western audience) is really competing with the exclusive intended for the japanese market.

[Sky Shadow]

very true, my point (as badly as it was made now that I've re-read it) was that I doubt the 3rd party crown (made for a western audience) is really competing with the exclusive intended for the japanese market.

I'm not certain that's the case, though. Consider a scenario in which I desperately want a Grimlock with the crown (which I do) but I already have a Masterpiece Grimlock.

I can buy a Masterpiece-08X Grimlock (despite it being difficult and expensive for me as someone who lives outside Japan) which nets TakaraTomy 13650JPY ($170AUDish). Or I can take the easier and cheaper route of buying a replica crown from some mass-customiser, which will mean TakaraTomy gets 0 yen and as a result may be dissuaded from creating any more Marvel comic-accurate items in the future.

I am buying MP-08X Grimlock whatever the cost, because I want there to at least be a possibility of more Marvel comic-accurate toys. But for every one of those KO Grimlock crowns that are sold, the likelihood of my dream becoming reality is potentially diminished.

[jaydisc]

Unless someone from Hasbro comes out and states that they were developing an upgrade kit for Ultra Magnus (as an example), then it's not an unreasonable assumption for them to make that Hasbro hasn't actually lost any future income.

Sadly, the flood of KOs does affect the business decisions of HasTak when it comes to releasing reissues, precisely because the ease with which one can purchase (knowingly or not) a KO on eBay or in certain markets (Hong Kong?) threatens to take away much of the demand for the legit product.

I can't find the difference between the two statements above. How could a KO threaten to take away potential revenue but an accessory not threaten to do exactly the same?

[GoktimusPrime]

As far as anyone knew, HasTak had no intention of making an upgrade trailer for Ultra Magnus. History demonstrates that HasTak love to repaint Optimus Primes in white and sell them as Ultra Magnus but they never get trailer-armours. As a result fans made one for Classics Ultra Magnus. Because, as far as is known, HasTak had no intention of making one themselves, they haven't lost any potential income from the fan item as a result.

A KO reissue on the other hand threatens to reduce demand for a legit version of that product, and thus in turn effects HasTak's business making decision. The Sunstreaker mould is only rumoured to have been lost and HasTak has neither confirmed nor denied this, so for argument's sake let's assume that they still have the mould. Now because there's a KO Sunstreaker coming out, Takara would now ask themselves why they would bother making a legit reissue as the demand for a G1 Sunstreaker may be effected by the KO. Many collectors may be satisfied to purchase a KO and not bother buying the legit version, which Takara may in turn see as meaning that it would be too risky for them to reissue Sunstreaker. The decision for them is compounded further if the G1 Sunstreaker mould has (as rumoured) indeed been damaged or lost/destroyed as it means that TakaraTOMY would have to spend a lot more money with R&D in terms of restoring the mould. We know that in 2000 when Takara reissued Convoy for the first time that they took what was left of the G2 Optimus Prime mould (which was the whole toy but they'd the arms were destroyed or lost) and spent a lot of money restoring the arms for that mould. Takara have stated that this was a _very_ expensive venture for them, but they calculated that with a character like Optimus Prime, the demand could justify the expense. And we've seen HasTak milk this reissue mould for all it's worth; I cannot think of any other Transformer toy that has been reissued more times than the 1984 Optimus Prime mould! AFAIK Takara(TOMY) have not gone to that much trouble and expense for any other lost or damaged mould for a reissue.

[STL]

Okay, let me clarify a little. By saying "It doesn't matter what you feel. It's wrong." is very dismissive of the different points of view and the ethical shades of grey here.

As griffin (and others) have alluded to, there are degrees. And depending on one's own ethics, it is possible to condone some items and not others:

+ Some of the fan-items aren't infringing on copyright (avoiding brand labelling etc) - they're equatable to reverse engineered generic printer cartridges, in essence.

+ Some are infringing - but aren't actually producing an item that HasTak are ever likely to produce themselves, resulting in no loss of income.

+ Some items are produced to suppliment a toy seen as "incomplete", such as the guns for movie Prime. That HasTak later produce another variant with the said gun included makes this one very much a grey area - HasTak could well lose income from this one, but the producer of the add-on accessory may not have intended that.

+ Some items, such as the KOs, are deliberate copyright infringements which are designed to specifically replace HasTak items, and therefore are designed to "steal" profit (so to speak).

It's not "wrong" to produce a fan item - even for profit - while skirting around copyright. I say that because "wrong" is a relative term and it depends on one's ethics. It is "wrong" to produce blatant KOs - the KOers know what they're doing is a flagrant abuse of copyright - they just don't care.

I think then its also possible to apply your shades of gray to KOs too. KOers are thinking that no Hasbro/Takara are never going to re-issue Mirage or Wheeljack or the Dinobots. Why not do it for ourselves. Hasbro/Takara aren't producing it at the moment and don't look like it either. That's an opportunity for us. In your worlds, since Hasbro/Takara don't like "likely to produce themselves, resulting[ly] there is no loss of income." And again, I think you've missed your own moral conundrum there. Just b/c fan-tems aren't "brand labelling" does it change that City Commander is supposed to Ultra Magnus? Why not paint it pink, blue and yellow? It wasn't b/c ultimately no one would've brought it in the same quantities it was demanded. They needed it to represent Ultra Magnus - something that rightfully belongs too Hasbro/Takara.

And constantly, no one the "KOs are wrong, fan customs are okay" has addressed the point I put forward is it right to steal someone's IP if it gives people what they want?

I think Gok alludes to it below. But that's the critical question here b/c I believe it underlies what I've termed "the convenient truth". We try and rationalise it b/c it's of benefit to us. We are up in arms though if its to our detriment. Can we have it both ways? I don't think we can.

So while I also agreed there are shades of gray, we still need to find a line in the sand. Yes there are shades but shades can be taken too far. Shades can be exploited and then it becomes a matter of, as you say, everyone's own ethics. What's wrong with a KO all of a sudden then if one can rationalise it? We need to at a minimum keep to some core facts. There is at the very least a legal infringement on someone's copyright. That act is the same one that allows a wide array of KOs/Mass-customs to be produced. That's a fact we cannot run away from. It constitutes a flagrant abuse of copyright either way and those involved don't really care. That's a fact we cannot use a convenient truth to obscure.

I've said it and said it again, I think it's a-okay. This is not about saying KOs are awesome or KOs are bad. This is not about saying mass-customs are the scourge of the universe or absolutely brilliant. It's just trying to explore that convenient truth we give ourselves. I think there's a dramatic shift in the landscape. Before it was quite black and white, but now we're entering a transition stage.

Not really. As exclusives they're produced in very limited numbers that their domestic market can easily absorb. And that's the whole point of exclusives anyway, it's not much different from say Hasbro selling toys exclusively to OTFCC club members or BotCon attendees.
.

Now, this is where the title of this thread was borne out of. It's very convenient to say that. Fact is, you have to remember, almost everything Takara produces is for its domestic market. Yes, people are able to export but primarily its dominant market is Japan. However, as we all know everyone has imported stuff from japan. Encore isn't meant for us. Henkei isn't meant for us. Alternity isn't meant for us. It's supposed to be primarily for its main market. Japan.

Now to twist that on its head and say oh this exclusive is only meant to be for Japan so some customiser in Hong Kong has no effect on it is ridiculous. Look at all the other "exclusives" like Henkei and Encore. Guess what, all the major US/HK online stores have all somehow had stock of those. They flood eBay too and sellers from Singapore and Malaysia have them in spades too. I'm really sorry, but to me this is the convenient truth. People are all too willing to rationalise and rationalise their reasons with arguments that they make their convenient truth. If you think about it, all exclusives have made it beyond Japanese shores. Bet you that BBTS will have it up for preorder, no doubt. Fans Project DIA for Asia, same thing. It's up for pre-order at BBTS. It's a very weak argument and you've got to remember, fans in Japan are also able to by the crown accessory kits too.

The reasoning just doesn't stand up against anecdotal evidence yet that argument is raised. Why? Because it's convenient.

Are you on one hand saying that you don't have a problem with unlicensed products anymore, but on the otherhand conceding that they're both "equally wrong"? I find it curious that you would personally classify them as "wrong" yet say that you have no problem with them.

So are you saying that the ends justify the means?
.

Personally, I don't think you need to link to a definition. I think it's rather condescending and rude. I think the expression "ends justify the means" is itself sufficient to evidence your meaning.

As for your point, I would say that I've readjusted my moral boundaries on the issue. I can see the double standard and I can't occupy that position anymore. So I've had to readjust where I stand on the issue as I can't deride KOers on the one hand and then applaud customisers on the other hand. I at the least have to be consistent. And that's as simple as no longer making it an issue in my mind to distinguish between the degrees. Yes, there are still cons of each but I cant with cogency assert KOs are bad when I'm allowing the same infringement somewhere else.

I also don't think that getting the accessory kit to compliment my existing figure means that the custom kit is competing with HasTakTom.

If I already have, say ROTF Prime (original release) and lament that it didn't come with a gun - I still wouldn't get buster Prime just for the gun even if there was no other choice so there is no competition as for most people, the whole new figure is not worth buying just for the gun.

Whoever gets both original and Buster Primes were going to get them anyway and for reasons beyond the sole accessory as very few people would buy the whole figure again 'just' for the gun alone.

There is no competition and it doesn't undermine Takara sales in any noticeable form unless they too are planning to release individual accessory kits which they will not.

Yeah, accessory kits do dance around the intellectual property factor and sometimes steps over the line but at no point have they endangered HasTakTom's bottom line or the possibility of future original mold figures. Only the straight replica KOers do that.

I find that logic to be very unsound and convenient. If you're only avenue to getting a better weapon/accessory is by buying the figure over with some slight retools then that's it. You've got to buy the figure. The very moment there's an alternative (accessory kit) why should I buy the whole thing again? For instance, Animated Wingblade Optimus Prime is based on the Voyager but with a new armoured trailer. Given the first choice of buying a separate accessory kit, I'd sure as heck do it rather than buying the whole toy/mold again. This means that basically the accessory kit would drive me away from buying the toy again. As why the heck would I fork out money for the whole Voyager when I can get the armour by itself? That means the accessory is competing with Hasbro/Takara, doesn't it?

As Dirge says, there is the legal point of view and the ethical/moral view and one has to be conscious of both or you fail at taking into account the larger picture.

It's like that incident that Gok was telling us regarding that Japanese fan convention that was shut down by Takara some years ago:

Takara only saw the legal point of view - not the moral, ethical or beneficiary (to them) point of view and decided to shut down the event because it was technically unauthorized. This caused a massive and probably very costly backlash from fans and costumers hurting their company name as well as sales and bottom line despite them technically being legally correct.

Why?

Because Takara could only see the legal side of it and failed to see that A) The event was also heavily promoting their products at no cost to the company B) It was going to pee off several of their fans who were attending the event out of interest and enthusiasm for their products.

You cannot only see and insist on one side of the argument, particularly in something like this which is multi-angled or you loose perspective on the greater picture at the risk of your own detriment.

I think you've missed my points, Kup. If you would go back and read over many of my posts, you'll notice that I have addressed and raised moral & ethical issues as well. To which there have been few responses. I completely agree with you, its not just about the letter of the law. That's why I have as above acknowledged quite openly that I've had to realign my position on this. I've seen its no longer tenable for me to hold any sort of moral high ground. It's incredibly hypocritical.

Your example is quite different as well. What I'm talking about now is an all-new emerging market for customs. What you're talking about is an event. What we're talking about now are products specifically been manufactured on a mass scale to broad global markets sold through so many online outlets

I think what this boils down to again is a convenient truth. We cannot deride KOs and accept mass-customs simultaneously. We can though accept the existence of both and realise that they arise out of the same infringement. Similar issues permeate their space and can we real pick and choose something just b/c one suits our purposes and another doesn't? To me too this has been an evolution in thinking as I've opened my eyes up. When I wrote my Soapbox VIII 2008 a Year in Review, I was only starting to see the emergence of the custom market as a real force. I didn't see many ethical issues at all. It's not until more recently why discussing the toys, this really occurred to me. We are living in a very interesting transition here. With things like Defender, Protector etc coming along, the boundaries are going to be more tested, the landscape more changed.

Anyhow, I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone whose responded and contributed to this edition of the Soapbox. Despite the divergence of views, which is inevitable in any Soapbox, I think it's been a very successful Soapbox in my eyes b/c it's got people to really discuss an issue in great depth and given that issue great texture. And that's the most important part of the Soapbox, getting people to talk about something topical and challenging and I'm very glad that this thread has done that.

Hopefully my next Soapbox isn't too far away

[The_Damned]

how can accessories made by a third party be illegal and an infringement on copyright?

for example it is not illegal to by accessories for my car, like roof racks, cd player, mags, lights, spoiler(i think you get the picture).

So how can a toy be any different to a car??

my whole problem with Knock Off transformers is that they are marketed as the real thing like the box and toy are trying to replicate and deceive people so they think they are buying the real thing,