Rank 1 - New or Inactive
I guess that depends on what you collect and/or why you collect.Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I find that in most cases there is a way to identify bootleg toys. You just have to do a little bit of research. If you don't know anything about the origin of a toy... why would you want to buy it? As an investment?
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
The Garage kits have actually encouraged people to buy HasTak products that they would have otherwise ignored.
Before City Commander, Classics Ultra Magnus was a 'meh' white Prime - Now his demand is considerable.
Arguably the same thing is happening to the Universe/Movie packaged Superion Maximus repaint.
A KO tries to deceive the buyer into thinking it is a complete legitimate product so that you would buy it instead of the real thing.
Comparing Garage/custom kits with KOs makes no sense to me. Also like mentioned, the garage kits often exist because Hasbro did not satisfyingly 'complete' the product to satisfaction of some costumers but at the same time it does note impede on their sales, on the contrary.
Last edited by kup; 28th July 2009 at 02:34 PM.
I agree.
Rank 9 - Board Staff
Not to pick on you specifically Kup, but you have concisely said two points that others have agreed with that I want to comment on:
The argument I believe STL is putting forth is that if Hasbro was to later consider making a non-repaint Ultra Magnus, the business viability of such a product has been negatively affected because they are competing against someone that has not legally licensed their IP. Hasbro would have to assess the same viability if while considering whether or not to reissue a figure that has been KO'd. This is even clearer for free standing figures such as Drift or Defender.
The KO itself? The KO reseller? or the KO Manufacturer? These are all different entities with different motivations.
The KO itself does nothing
KO resellers have indeed been known to use deceptive tactics. You can even use the word "most", but that fact is far from universal. www.kotoys.com is very clear about what you are buying, as are many other KO resellers.
The KO manufacturer, on the other hand, is simply someone trying to make money by making a product based on someone else's IP, in order for to save R & D costs and garner demand. These are the same motives of a large-scale customizer. I don't believe that KO manufacturers practice deception. Like any other manufacturer, they sell to distributors or resellers. I have only ever heard of one public situation where resellers unknowingly received KOs when ordering otherwise. For the most part, the resellers that sell KOs, know full well that they are buying KOs.
I believe it is toward the KO manufacturers that STL is drawing his comparison and not to the resellers, which many of you have inferred.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Sorry, I disagree - deception is at the heart of KO manufacturers or there would be a big stamp on the box saying 'Non official product'.
In regards to Hasbro being denied the possibility to do Ultra Magnus with armor in the future due to City Commander - I doubt it very much it was even on their radar. I actually believe that its now more possible for Hasbro to do such things due to the success of City Commander but not before. Now they are more likely to pay attention instead of doing something half a$$ed because they know that a third party will then come out and benefit from their shortcomings - Yeah a garage kit upgrade means that an otherwise mediocre hasbro product will have more demand but I doubt Hasbro likes other companies benefiting from their short comings either.
HasTak had years to produce a G1 Ultra Magnus with armor but instead went forth with white Primes which got old quickly and naturally costumers became skeptical that it would ever happen and so did Fan Projects to their benefit.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
I agree with the issue of deception. it's discussed above and while I completely take on board its dillutive effect on the collector market and frustration that comes with, it's ultimately not our place to kick up a stink (I'm not happy about G1 KOers either, mind you). Who owns the IP? Who should have ultimate authority to use their IP and their characters? Hasbro. It's not for anybody else to determine what to supply the market when ultimately the IP belongs to Hasbro. Yes, deception is an issue. But the bigger issue is the 1st infringement that allowed the deception to take place: the taking of IP belonging to Hasbro/Takara. That infringement is the one and the same to all those infringement that mass-customisers make.
City Commander gave rise to demand for Classics 1.0 Ultra Magnus? That's the after market, a market that Hasbro does not get a cut of. Hasbro gains no benefit whatsoever. It's an extrenely weak argument. And further, once again, it returns itself to one simple fact: Hasbro/Takara own the rights to TFs. Nobody else. It is not the place of anybody else, fans included, to determine what should be produced, what are the opportunities within the market. These are not decisions anyone else is able to make and exploit except Hasbro/Takara. It is their right. Not the mass customiser. Nor the KOer. Nor the fan. You cannot go out there and produce something based on someone else's IP and profit on it just b/c there's a new opportunity there. You don't have that right in the 1st place. It is not your right. You can't go out there and make a new version of the Matrix DVD boxset w/ better packaging and extras b/c you feel that the manufacturer made a substandard offering. It's not your place. By the same token then, the mass-customiser and the KOer can't do that either. They have no right to. They therefore are culpable of committing the same infringement.
I'm by no means judging anybody for buying mass-customised product. I myself do and openly acknowledge it. But what I'm trying to do is shed light on the moral hypocrisy we are embarking on. We have not a foot to stand on on KOers if we can accept the mass-customiser as ultimately that's a double standard,
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Rank 6 - Dedicated Member
Agreed.
The difference is that a ko is a blatent attempt to decieve people who think they're buying the real thing.
The "customisers" are value adding and don't use/take away any past or currently held IP.
HUGE difference, and to compare them as equals deserves an anti soapbox soapbox on it's own.
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Yes you can, as proven by FansProject, natobot, igear, Impossible Toys and others.
Rank 9 - Board Staff
Not true. There is market demand for a substitution to more expensive, less fresh vintage goods. And it only takes a quick trip to any KO related news article to see so:
From Seibertron:
To TFW2005Wonder how much they'd let it go for? I still need a sunstreaker. I dont care if i have a KO or a real one as long as the price is right.
Do you think he wants a big stamp on his box?I feel all warm and fuzzy when I see these. Because I can pick up something that looks like the real thing for a lot cheaper than a sealed original. I thought Slag was also being worked on because prototypes showed up a while back with Sludge and Slag. I hope they finish the Dinobots.
I hope if Takara/Tomy doesn't do Shockwave we can get one in a G1 box from these guys.
Now, as always, this raises the hairs on the back of necks and even induces MV75 to threaten with chilling effects, so watch out!
I don't think anyone is trying to condone KOs, but if you really think you're morally superior when you buy a large-scale, manufactured TF likeness as opposed to a KO, you're just rationalizing and deceiving yourself.
Rank 8 - Multi-Section Mod
and KOers, which is what his point is in total
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