Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
The G1 KOs locally costs more than what you would get a complete vintage figure on ebay. The guy at the Parra Fair sales KOs and absurd prices and he is fully aware of what they are.
On Ebay, the G1 KOs are not that much ahead their loose vintage and complete counterparts.
Rank 1 - New or Inactive
I'm sure that observation doesnt apply to just KO's mate.Originally Posted by kup
but yeah, it is a shame when people unsuspectingly get ripped off from buying KO's (especially expensive KO's) thinking they are legit, but life is a learning process. We have all been ripped of at some stage or another and we need to learn from it.
But on the opposite spectrum, there are some that knowingly buy KO's, thinking desperately that they can never own a legit MISB G1 Swoop (for e.g.), so they opt to pay the higher (but still cheaper) price and get MISB KO Swoop right then and there.
Rank 6 - Dedicated Member
So STL, what are your thoughts on this sort of thing:
http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-...coming-168227/
?
The ko'ers don't care whos IP they walk all over.
Code:O o _ / -------------------------------- | IMMA FIRIN MA LAZAR!!! \_--------------------------------
Rank 9 - Board Staff
+1000!!
Totally agree!
One solution: Bring back GoBots!
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
STL: Yeah, I see what you mean by infringement over deception. Having said that, IMHO I find garage kits to be a more "benign" form of infringement whereas KOs are more malignant (especially if they are counterfeits that attempt to pass off as legit products). Garage kits are somewhat similar to say doujinshi or fan subbs; technically illegal but openly tolerated by companies where both parties realise that they can benefit from each other and there's a sort of unspoken code of honour that exists. I used to be involved in fansubbing and I can tell you that animé companies _definitely_ knew we existed, and in fact often would observe the popularity of fan subs to gauge interest in a title before officially obtaining a licence for it. They even wrote friendly letters to us and gave us sample products!
And I think that companies can stand to benefit a lot if they play their cards right with "benign infringers" -- and on the other hand, things can turn very nasty against companies if they slap down too hard on benign infringers too. Look at the BotCon Japan 2000 Ichikawa Hirofumi controversy (I'm sure I've told you this story before). Although Takara were legally fully within their rights to do what they did to Ichikawa, the majority of Japanese fans felt that it was still an act of douchebaggery and as a result really lashed out against them. BotCon Japan has since become _extinct_ and Takara worked very hard in cooperation with Ichikawa to repair company-fan relations. To their credit they've done well, but yeah - I think they learned a lesson that flexing their legal muscle in a way which fans see as nothing more than corporate greed and selfishness can blow up in their face if it compromises their reputation and relationship with consumers.
I somehow don't think the majority of fans would feel a similar sense of outrage if HasTak ever cracked down on a bootlegger.
What monopoly? It's not as if Transformers is the _only_ toy brand out there. We have Lego, Ben 10, Barbie, Sesame Street, Bakugan etc. And Transformers isn't the only scif robot toy brand out there, we also have Roadbots and Machine Robot. And in Japan the competition in this field is even more massive with the plethora of mecha toys and merchandise there (Transformers are like an insect compared to Gundam).
Unless you're saying that HasTak have a monopoly in making 'Transformers' - which is not a really valid argument. Of _course_ they have a monopoly in making Transformers; it's their brand! That's like saying that Holden has a monopoly in making Commodores or Lamborghini has a monopoly in making Diablos. Or that Mattel (which is a bigger company than Hasbro) has a monopoly in making Barbie. Yes, Barbie is Mattel's IP - but that in itself isn't stopping any other toy maker from making their own girls' doll line. Likewise HasTak owning Transformers doesn't stop anyone else from developing their own transforming robot toy line like say Macross. Heck, Transformers itself was _born_ from different transforming robot lines owned by different companies (though most by Takara) e.g. Diaclone, Microman, Astro Magnum, Mechabot-1, Beetras, Dorvack etc.
So go ahead and boycott products that you think are sub par. I don't see how that justifies supporting an illegal market though.
Rank 10 - Admin
Some thoughts/observations:
- KO makers try hard to pretend their KO's are the real deals produced by the real company, while certain fan items (not all) try hard to pretend their works are not related to the real deals or the real company. I find this parallel funny.
- Some of us are treating the support for fan items as having an affair and we're not faithful to our wife (HasTak). We think it's wrong but it feels good to do it. Are we all treating our relationship with HasTak like a real "marriage"?
- I like this topic "the Convenient Truth":
HasTak released MANY vehicles/jets/whatever related toys in the past. Did they pay licencing fee for all of them? I think the licencing they paid for the Binaltech/Alternators/Movie/Alternaties/ROTF was certainly a good new direction for them. But when they mentioned they've been taken advantage of in the recent BotCon, it was very convenient for them to forget their own past. I'm not saying that just because HasTak took advantage of others then it becomes fair game for others to take advanage of HasTak too. But I just can't help but feel funny about HasTak's comments.Also interesting how Hasbro itself has been infringing on others' intellectual properties. I wonder if Hasbro ever approached Lamborgini for a license for their Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker and Sideswipe? Whether they did or not they ended up releasing the toys anyway.Maybe they were willing to ignore and forgive themselves with the occasional ones here and there. As a fan I'm more than happy that they released the toys for us though.
One can argue that HasTak's vehicle toys often came with differences and were not exact scale replicas of the real deals. But hey many of the fan items are creative and not exact copies of HasTak's existing products too. And do not kid yourself if you reckon HasTak's toys weren't inspired by others' intellectual properties.
- WST Dinobots were mentioned in discussions from time to time. How about Roadbots?
Last edited by Kyle; 28th July 2009 at 10:26 PM.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
I thought Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker and Sideswipe's alt modes weren't actual Lamborghinis, but 'generic' looking sports cars that happen to look quite similar to Lamborghinis (but dissimilar enough to avoid a lawsuit). Likewise I heard that Hasbro had to modify the headlights on RiD X-Brawn because they couldn't obtain the rights from Mercedes for the ML320 (whereas Takara did, hence why Wild Ride has fully accurate headlights). Likewise with Alternator Prowl they had to change the Honda logo to an "A" because of some licensing issue.
Yeah, that's what I meant before when I said that these fan items intentionally design their products so that while they bear striking similarity to Transformers, they're also clearly dissimilar and not the same thing either. I was under the impression that once you modify at least 10% of a source material then it's no longer considered plagiarism. And indeed it is often done with parodies - look at Hardware Wars (with characters like Fluke Starbucker, Ham Salad, Princess Anne-Droid, Darph Nader, Chinchilla the Wookiee Monster, RT-deco, 4Q2 etc.), Thumb Wars (Loke Groundrunner), Spaceballs, MAD Magazine and who doesn't love Weird Al Yankovic's musical spoofs?
I see fan items as being a lot of those things that people can get for computers, game consoles etc - stuff that's compatible, but not manufactured by the computer or console's company. e.g.: a Playstation-compatible controller not manufactured by Sony. They even have these in Japan; they're a cheaper alternative to buying Sony controllers, but of course, they're not endorsed by Sony. Heck, I drive a Mitsubishi but I can get PLENTY of generic-brand parts for my car that aren't manufactured by Mitsubishi. They're not illegal immitations/counterfeits or anything - they're just parts made by other companies but are intentionally made to be compatible with certain makes of cars.
G2 Gobots/Spychangers were inspired by Mattel's Hot Wheels and are indeed designed to be compatible with their playsets!! Combiners were inspired by Galoob's Connect-a-bles (before Galoob was acquired by Hasbro) -- hell, the entire reason why Hasbro did Transformers was to compete with Tonka's Go-Bots/Machine Men!!
The Smallest Dinobots are a form of intellectual theft though - but Roadbots aren't. They're perfectly legit and are indeed a form of competition for Transformers in toy aisles. I'm not at all interested in Roadbots, but it's always good to see competition in the market.
Rank 9 - Board Staff
I don't think there's any hard set percentage or definition. I think the idea is you can't create market confusion so that one company can't profit of the work and IP of another.I was under the impression that once you modify at least 10% of a source material then it's no longer considered plagiarism. And indeed it is often done with parodies - look at Hardware Wars (with characters like Fluke Starbucker, Ham Salad, Princess Anne-Droid, Darph Nader, Chinchilla the Wookiee Monster, RT-deco, 4Q2 etc.), Thumb Wars (Loke Groundrunner), Spaceballs, MAD Magazine and who doesn't love Weird Al Yankovic's musical spoofs?
I believe spoofs and parodies fall under a different set of rules to that as well. While this is an American example, I think most of the concepts will be similar. The EFF has put together a white paper on suggestions for running a gripe or parody site here. The goal is still to avoid market confusion. I don't think many have bought Weird Al's Fat thinking it was Michael Jackson's Bad. However, I do believe he was taken to court to find out on a few occasions.
Also, unbeknownst to, and unfortunately for, I don't believe Australia has the "Fair Use" provisions which I think you've insinuated, and we've probably all wished for. Most mentions of "Fair Use" that you'll find on the internet typically relate to the American DMCA.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
Classics Sunstreaker:
Not a perfect replica but close enough.
Rank 8 - Deluxe Member
I think Bruticus may have been trying to say that because HasTak fully own "Transformers" they are the only manufacturer for official Transformers, therefore no alternative manufacturer can compete. Eg, I've seen Macross Toys made by Yamato, Bandai, & Toynami. and Macross Model Kits made by Hasegawa and Bandai.
Starwars fans can choose from Hasbro, Kotobukiya, Medicom, Diamond Select, Sideshow, LEGO, EFX Collectables etc, etc.
I've seen Gundam items with Banpresto, Bandai or Kotobukiya on the box. (Dunno if Banpresto and Bandai are the same or not)
Like you said, Holden have a monopoly on Commodores (as awesome as they are) but they don't have a monopoly on Large rear drive Sedans.
Anyways.....fans dont have a choice, if you want an official Transformer that covert vehicle to robot it must be a HasTak. Alot of times HasTak take advantage of that by giving us Bruticus/Superion giftsets with no Fragging hands or Feet, they give us ROTF figures made entirely of coloured plastic, thats like KinderSurprise Quality and they're only $1 and you get chocolate!! They give us a red car and a yellow car and its Bumblebee and cliffjumper or Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, how many characters have been released using that classics Sunstreaker mold? 4 or 5? They manipulate box photos coz the TF inside aka Ult Bumblebee is Crap worthy but i must admit HasTak do produce some really nice stuff.
Its difficult to feel bad for Hasbro when there are so many examples of refined lumps of petrochemical inserted into a box with a Transformers logo on it. Go Customisers Go. (Please insert Go Speedracer pic)
Ko'ers have no good intention. Customisers have to make a good product or it won't sell, and you know it aint official before you press buy now. Yes there are property infringements. But comparing Ko'ers with Mass Customs is like Apples vs Oranges.
MEGATRON Without PRIME is like Bacon without Eggs.
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