The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[TheDirtyDigger]

Classics Sunstreaker:



Not a perfect replica but close enough.

Melbourne Lamborghini is one of my customers and the cars in their showroom look very like Classics Sunstreaker. I keep meaning to ask them if I can pose my Tf with their cars.

[GoktimusPrime]

jaydisc: I think there are laws which dictate how similar a toy can be to something like a real life vehicle before the toy company has to pay a licensing fee. AFAIK HasTak have lawyers which review and approve their products - including things like visual likeness and how much they can get away with in terms of making similar to a certain product before needing to pay licensing. We know they definitely do it with names so I think they also do it with things like vehicles. So things like Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker is probably just within the legal limits of how much Hasbro can imitate a Lamborghini without having to pay for licensing. If you look at the movie toys they actually have vehicle makers' names and logos displayed (e.g. GM, Lockheed & Martin, Corvette etc.) which indicates to me that Hasbro must've sought permission from those companies.

I think Bruticus may have been trying to say that because HasTak fully own "Transformers" they are the only manufacturer for official Transformers, therefore no alternative manufacturer can compete. Eg, I've seen Macross Toys made by Yamato, Bandai, & Toynami. and Macross Model Kits made by Hasegawa and Bandai.
Starwars fans can choose from Hasbro, Kotobukiya, Medicom, Diamond Select, Sideshow, LEGO, EFX Collectables etc, etc.
I've seen Gundam items with Banpresto, Bandai or Kotobukiya on the box. (Dunno if Banpresto and Bandai are the same or not)

Those are more examples of other companies manufacturing toys under licence from the original company. For example, Kabuya manufactures a lot of Transformers candy/gum PVCs and model kits - and it would have been done so under licence from Takara. Likewise Jayjays is a separate company from Hasbro, but they are able to manufacture Transformers clothes under licence from Hasbro. So I'd say that a Macross toy or model manufactured by say Yamato, would've been done so under licence from Big West.

Anyways.....fans dont have a choice, if you want an official Transformer that covert vehicle to robot it must be a HasTak. Alot of times HasTak take advantage of that by giving us Bruticus/Superion giftsets with no Fragging hands or Feet, they give us ROTF figures made entirely of coloured plastic, thats like KinderSurprise Quality and they're only $1 and you get chocolate!! They give us a red car and a yellow car and its Bumblebee and cliffjumper or Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, how many characters have been released using that classics Sunstreaker mold? 4 or 5? They manipulate box photos coz the TF inside aka Ult Bumblebee is Crap worthy but i must admit HasTak do produce some really nice stuff.

Its difficult to feel bad for Hasbro when there are so many examples of refined lumps of petrochemical inserted into a box with a Transformers logo on it. Go Customisers Go. (Please insert Go Speedracer pic)

If you're unhappy with an official TF product, then just don't buy it. I'm not collecting Mighty Muggs because I think they're complete crap. I think most of us here entirely skipped Transformers Animorphs for similar reasons! Just because you're a TF collector doesn't mean you have to buy _everything_ that's an official licensed TF product, unless you're a completist - but again, that's a choice you make. But I don't see my dislike for Mighty Muggs as a justification for buying a KO. Just because HasTak won't officially reissue a certain toy doesn't mean I'll go buy a KO of it. For instance, I need the Trainbots - and I've seen plenty of KO Raidens around (first time I saw one was in 2001). But just because Takara won't reissue Raiden doesn't mean that I'll go get a KO. I'll either save up and buy a legit one, or just not get one!! (yes, I can live without that toy!) - as a collector I would rather not have the toy at all over having a counterfeit.

Ko'ers have no good intention. Customisers have to make a good product or it won't sell, and you know it aint official before you press buy now. Yes there are property infringements. But comparing Ko'ers with Mass Customs is like Apples vs Oranges.

+1

[jaydisc]

jaydisc: I think there are laws which dictate how similar a toy can be to something like a real life vehicle before the toy company has to pay a licensing fee. AFAIK HasTak have lawyers which review and approve their products - including things like visual likeness and how much they can get away with in terms of making similar to a certain product before needing to pay licensing. We know they definitely do it with names so I think they also do it with things like vehicles. So things like Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker is probably just within the legal limits of how much Hasbro can imitate a Lamborghini without having to pay for licensing. If you look at the movie toys they actually have vehicle makers' names and logos displayed (e.g. GM, Lockheed & Martin, Corvette etc.) which indicates to me that Hasbro must've sought permission from those companies.

Absolutely. I completely agree. I'm just saying I don't think there's any measurable definition (like your 10%). It's simply lawyers guessing what they can get away with and judges deciding.

[d*r*j*]

...If they don't care about Transformers, then why do they keep making them? Why are they trying to get Animated toys released despite the fact that the franchise is essentially over? That fact alone proves that they care about Transformers.

What? Do hasbro make transformers? NO.

They pay people in Japan to design them.

Then pay people in China to produce them.

Then they market them in the US. That's it, they invest and sell. They only invest in things that they believe will sell. If they believe that animated toys will sell well... and they already have a partial investment in unique moulds, then they will most likely release further animated toys.

[Hereticpoo]

...as a collector I would rather not have the toy at all over having a counterfeit.

True dat. Gok my man a challenge for you, or anyone who would know.

Has there ever been a non Hasbro or Takara;

Toy (transforming toy, not statue, pvc figure, model kit, chewing gum, tshirt, coffee cup, car sticker, pogostick, role playing mask/gun/cape, keychain, spirograph, or table matt, Toy. )

.....that transforms from alt mode to robot and back.
.....that is an official transformers character from any licenced medium (Film, comic, anime).
with faction symbols, that is a 100% Official TRANSFORMERS registered product, thats been engineered, designed, developed, sold by a licenced third party manufacturer?

[roller]

Hereticpoo, Antex produced Minibots for Argentina and Saltmen X + Z

[canofwhoopass_87]

What about the employment opportunities for the poor factory workers making the KO's! Don't forget about the little people.

[STL]

Its difficult to feel bad for Hasbro when there are so many examples of refined lumps of petrochemical inserted into a box with a Transformers logo on it. Go Customisers Go. (Please insert Go Speedracer pic)
Ko'ers have no good intention. Customisers have to make a good product or it won't sell, and you know it aint official before you press buy now. Yes there are property infringements. But comparing Ko'ers with Mass Customs is like Apples vs Oranges.

I agree completely that they are different. My point though is they come into existence b/c of the very same act. What's done after cannot right the first wrong. And in an ideal world, we should not be condoning either. Intention to make a good custom could easily be equated intention to make a good KO. That doesn't change the fact that there is IP being infringed, there is a deprivation of an opportunity for Hasbro/Takara (whether or not they choose to take it). We can't determine that b/c it is good for us, that that somehow makes it right. We can like it but that doesnt' change the fact that we are supporting something unsanctioned and depends exclusively on the Hasbro/Takara characters and toys and hence IP.

Some thoughts/observations:

- KO makers try hard to pretend their KO's are the real deals produced by the real company, while certain fan items (not all) try hard to pretend their works are not related to the real deals or the real company. I find this parallel funny.

- Some of us are treating the support for fan items as having an affair and we're not faithful to our wife (HasTak). We think it's wrong but it feels good to do it. Are we all treating our relationship with HasTak like a real "marriage"?

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I don't think its wrong at all. I'm perfectly comfortable with cheating in my r/ships But in all seriousness, I do agree with you. I have no problem at all at buying mass-customs. I love them and I think they have changed the way Hasbro thinks about repackaging toys. Just look at Wingblade Prime, Samurai Prime and Hydrodive BB. It costs them less to work with an old mold and just add armour basically but creates a whole new demand for that figure. What I do think is wrong is that we think we're somehow morally right to chastise KOs but fail to see that mass-customisers are guilty of the same infringement. You can't condone one and not the other b/c it makes you hypocritical. As such, I don't see myself as any longer able to be angered by KOs. I can't accept an infringement when it works for me but get angry when it doesn't.

I also agree with your parallel. It's very ironic how the lines are drawn!

- I like this topic "the Convenient Truth":

Thanks! I liked it too and was hoping to get more kudos for such a lovely title Much appreciated.

HasTak released MANY vehicles/jets/whatever related toys in the past. Did they pay licencing fee for all of them? I think the licencing they paid for the Binaltech/Alternators/Movie/Alternaties/ROTF was certainly a good new direction for them. But when they mentioned they've been taken advantage of in the recent BotCon, it was very convenient for them to forget their own past. I'm not saying that just because HasTak took advantage of others then it becomes fair game for others to take advanage of HasTak too. But I just can't help but feel funny about HasTak's comments.

One can argue that HasTak's vehicle toys often came with differences and were not exact scale replicas of the real deals. But hey many of the fan items are creative and not exact copies of HasTak's existing products too. And do not kid yourself if you reckon HasTak's toys weren't inspired by others' intellectual properties.

- WST Dinobots were mentioned in discussions from time to time. How about Roadbots?

I don't disagree with your point but again I don't think it makes it okay to commit the core infringement. In the case of both mass-customs and KOs, they take something (character or toy) that is not their's and use it for their own ends to produce something whose entire success rests on Hasbro/Takara IP. A Sunstreaker toy does not on the other hand rely solely on its appeal as a Lamborghini to succeed. People don;'t buy it b/c it's a Lambo. They buy it b/c its a transformer and it looks nice. So yes, I think you make a valid point but I don't think it changes the landscape at all here as ultimately the core infringement relies on something that is entirely Hasbro/Takara's to succeed.

What about the employment opportunities for the poor factory workers making the KO's! Don't forget about the little people.

I don't honestly think they'd be too different from the ones that normal TFs are made in either. You've gotta remember, all stuff is made in China these days. And a large reason for that is the low cost of labour.

So STL, what are your thoughts on this sort of thing:

http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-...coming-168227/

?

The ko'ers don't care whos IP they walk all over.

You mistake me again. As stated clearly in the Soapbox, I'm not by any means saying KOers aren't guilty or deceptive. I contended all along that both mass-customisers and KOers step all over IP. Neither is less culpable. The only reduced culpability that mass-customisers have is derived from the fact that we like their products and that in itself isn't a very rigid position from which to hold some air of moral superiority when we're accepting something just b/c it's convenient to our interests. It's the same infringement and what we need to do is acknowledge that and admit that it's not right.

That's not to say we can't like mass-custom offerings b/c I sure as hell do. But to be credible we need to remember where the line in the sand is. Fact is, both have crossed it and we can't hold to our arguments about the morality of it all when we are condoning the very same act that permits a KO or mass-custom to be produced.

[Sky Shadow]

What? Do hasbro make transformers? NO.

They pay people in Japan to design them.

Really? Doesn't that mean Eric Siebenaler, Don Figueroa, Derrick J. Wyatt and Aaron Archer get paid for just sitting around on their arses all day?

[GoktimusPrime]

What? Do hasbro make transformers? NO.

They pay people in Japan to design them.

Then pay people in China to produce them.

Then they market them in the US. That's it, they invest and sell. They only invest in things that they believe will sell. If they believe that animated toys will sell well... and they already have a partial investment in unique moulds, then they will most likely release further animated toys.

That's not entirely true. In many cases Hasbro contributes too. Through reading the Takara Staff Interview with Ono Koujin in TF Generations and meeting up and talking with Hasbro designer Eric Siebernaler, my understanding of how it works is this:
+ Hasbro tells Takara what they want and sends them conceptual design sketches
+ Takara then engineers these designs into toys
+ After Hasbro approves the final designs they are then manufactured in China

Hereticpoo, Antex produced Minibots for Argentina and Saltmen X + Z

They didn't _make_ them though. They just got existing TF moulds like the MiniBots and Jumpstarters and repainted them and sold them to Latin American markets.

So afaik there hasn't been any other company that's produced mainline Transformers action figures. But then again, why would there be?? The only time HasTak would ever licence out to another company would be to produce things that they themselves don't, like clothes, comic books, cartoons, movies etc. Otherwise if they can do it themselves, why wouldn't they?

With franchises like Gundam and Macross it's different, they're not predominantly (or initially) toy franchises - they're animé franchises. Animé companies like Big West then go and licence various companies to manufacture merchandise for them. Transformers on the other hand is primarily HasTak's action figure franchise. So I think comparing Transformers with franchises like Gundam and Macross is like apples and oranges.

Compare it with other primarily toy franchises like LEGO, Barbie and Hot Wheels. When have LEGO ever allowed another company to manufacture LEGO toys for them? There are other brands of building block toys for sure, but none of them are actually LEGO (afaik).

What about the employment opportunities for the poor factory workers making the KO's! Don't forget about the little people.

And if we shut down drug makers we'll also be leaving many people without a form of employment. They might just have to go and make an honest living!

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