jaydisc: I think there are laws which dictate how similar a toy can be to something like a real life vehicle before the toy company has to pay a licensing fee. AFAIK HasTak have lawyers which review and approve their products - including things like visual likeness and how much they can get away with in terms of making similar to a certain product before needing to pay licensing. We know they definitely do it with names so I think they also do it with things like vehicles. So things like Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker is probably just within the legal limits of how much Hasbro can imitate a Lamborghini without having to pay for licensing. If you look at the movie toys they actually have vehicle makers' names and logos displayed (e.g. GM, Lockheed & Martin, Corvette etc.) which indicates to me that Hasbro must've sought permission from those companies.
Those are more examples of other companies manufacturing toys under licence from the original company. For example, Kabuya manufactures a lot of Transformers candy/gum PVCs and model kits - and it would have been done so under licence from Takara. Likewise Jayjays is a separate company from Hasbro, but they are able to manufacture Transformers clothes under licence from Hasbro. So I'd say that a Macross toy or model manufactured by say Yamato, would've been done so under licence from Big West.Originally Posted by Hereticpoo
If you're unhappy with an official TF product, then just don't buy it. I'm not collecting Mighty Muggs because I think they're complete crap. I think most of us here entirely skipped Transformers Animorphs for similar reasons! Just because you're a TF collector doesn't mean you have to buy _everything_ that's an official licensed TF product, unless you're a completist - but again, that's a choice you make. But I don't see my dislike for Mighty Muggs as a justification for buying a KO. Just because HasTak won't officially reissue a certain toy doesn't mean I'll go buy a KO of it. For instance, I need the Trainbots - and I've seen plenty of KO Raidens around (first time I saw one was in 2001). But just because Takara won't reissue Raiden doesn't mean that I'll go get a KO. I'll either save up and buy a legit one, or just not get one!! (yes, I can live without that toy!) - as a collector I would rather not have the toy at all over having a counterfeit.Originally Posted by Hereticpoo
+1Originally Posted by Hereticpoo
What? Do hasbro make transformers? NO.
They pay people in Japan to design them.
Then pay people in China to produce them.
Then they market them in the US. That's it, they invest and sell. They only invest in things that they believe will sell. If they believe that animated toys will sell well... and they already have a partial investment in unique moulds, then they will most likely release further animated toys.
True dat. Gok my man a challenge for you, or anyone who would know.
Has there ever been a non Hasbro or Takara;
Toy (transforming toy, not statue, pvc figure, model kit, chewing gum, tshirt, coffee cup, car sticker, pogostick, role playing mask/gun/cape, keychain, spirograph, or table matt, Toy. )
.....that transforms from alt mode to robot and back.
.....that is an official transformers character from any licenced medium (Film, comic, anime).
with faction symbols, that is a 100% Official TRANSFORMERS registered product, thats been engineered, designed, developed, sold by a licenced third party manufacturer?
MEGATRON Without PRIME is like Bacon without Eggs.
Hereticpoo, Antex produced Minibots for Argentina and Saltmen X + Z
What about the employment opportunities for the poor factory workers making the KO's! Don't forget about the little people.
I agree completely that they are different. My point though is they come into existence b/c of the very same act. What's done after cannot right the first wrong. And in an ideal world, we should not be condoning either. Intention to make a good custom could easily be equated intention to make a good KO. That doesn't change the fact that there is IP being infringed, there is a deprivation of an opportunity for Hasbro/Takara (whether or not they choose to take it). We can't determine that b/c it is good for us, that that somehow makes it right. We can like it but that doesnt' change the fact that we are supporting something unsanctioned and depends exclusively on the Hasbro/Takara characters and toys and hence IP.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
I don't think its wrong at all. I'm perfectly comfortable with cheating in my r/ships But in all seriousness, I do agree with you. I have no problem at all at buying mass-customs. I love them and I think they have changed the way Hasbro thinks about repackaging toys. Just look at Wingblade Prime, Samurai Prime and Hydrodive BB. It costs them less to work with an old mold and just add armour basically but creates a whole new demand for that figure. What I do think is wrong is that we think we're somehow morally right to chastise KOs but fail to see that mass-customisers are guilty of the same infringement. You can't condone one and not the other b/c it makes you hypocritical. As such, I don't see myself as any longer able to be angered by KOs. I can't accept an infringement when it works for me but get angry when it doesn't.
I also agree with your parallel. It's very ironic how the lines are drawn!
Thanks! I liked it too and was hoping to get more kudos for such a lovely title Much appreciated.
I don't disagree with your point but again I don't think it makes it okay to commit the core infringement. In the case of both mass-customs and KOs, they take something (character or toy) that is not their's and use it for their own ends to produce something whose entire success rests on Hasbro/Takara IP. A Sunstreaker toy does not on the other hand rely solely on its appeal as a Lamborghini to succeed. People don;'t buy it b/c it's a Lambo. They buy it b/c its a transformer and it looks nice. So yes, I think you make a valid point but I don't think it changes the landscape at all here as ultimately the core infringement relies on something that is entirely Hasbro/Takara's to succeed.
I don't honestly think they'd be too different from the ones that normal TFs are made in either. You've gotta remember, all stuff is made in China these days. And a large reason for that is the low cost of labour.
You mistake me again. As stated clearly in the Soapbox, I'm not by any means saying KOers aren't guilty or deceptive. I contended all along that both mass-customisers and KOers step all over IP. Neither is less culpable. The only reduced culpability that mass-customisers have is derived from the fact that we like their products and that in itself isn't a very rigid position from which to hold some air of moral superiority when we're accepting something just b/c it's convenient to our interests. It's the same infringement and what we need to do is acknowledge that and admit that it's not right.
That's not to say we can't like mass-custom offerings b/c I sure as hell do. But to be credible we need to remember where the line in the sand is. Fact is, both have crossed it and we can't hold to our arguments about the morality of it all when we are condoning the very same act that permits a KO or mass-custom to be produced.
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That's not entirely true. In many cases Hasbro contributes too. Through reading the Takara Staff Interview with Ono Koujin in TF Generations and meeting up and talking with Hasbro designer Eric Siebernaler, my understanding of how it works is this:Originally Posted by d*r*j
+ Hasbro tells Takara what they want and sends them conceptual design sketches
+ Takara then engineers these designs into toys
+ After Hasbro approves the final designs they are then manufactured in China
They didn't _make_ them though. They just got existing TF moulds like the MiniBots and Jumpstarters and repainted them and sold them to Latin American markets.Originally Posted by roller
So afaik there hasn't been any other company that's produced mainline Transformers action figures. But then again, why would there be?? The only time HasTak would ever licence out to another company would be to produce things that they themselves don't, like clothes, comic books, cartoons, movies etc. Otherwise if they can do it themselves, why wouldn't they?
With franchises like Gundam and Macross it's different, they're not predominantly (or initially) toy franchises - they're animé franchises. Animé companies like Big West then go and licence various companies to manufacture merchandise for them. Transformers on the other hand is primarily HasTak's action figure franchise. So I think comparing Transformers with franchises like Gundam and Macross is like apples and oranges.
Compare it with other primarily toy franchises like LEGO, Barbie and Hot Wheels. When have LEGO ever allowed another company to manufacture LEGO toys for them? There are other brands of building block toys for sure, but none of them are actually LEGO (afaik).
And if we shut down drug makers we'll also be leaving many people without a form of employment. They might just have to go and make an honest living!Originally Posted by canofwhoopass
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