The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[Hereticpoo]

So I think comparing Transformers with franchises like Gundam and Macross is like apples and oranges.

Touche!

[Kyle]

I don't disagree with your point but again I don't think it makes it okay to commit the core infringement. In the case of both mass-customs and KOs, they take something (character or toy) that is not their's and use it for their own ends to produce something whose entire success rests on Hasbro/Takara IP. A Sunstreaker toy does not on the other hand rely solely on its appeal as a Lamborghini to succeed. People don;'t buy it b/c it's a Lambo. They buy it b/c its a transformer and it looks nice. So yes, I think you make a valid point but I don't think it changes the landscape at all here as ultimately the core infringement relies on something that is entirely Hasbro/Takara's to succeed.

Just because HasTak does not rely on the infringements it makes to succeed in selling toys (this is still debatable), then the infringements it makes are no longer infringements?

If I don't need to steal but I go ahead and steal from a shop anyway, is it a lesser offence than someone who steals from myself?

[Lord_Zed]

And if we shut down drug makers we'll also be leaving many people without a form of employment. They might just have to go and make an honest living!

Watch this

Sadly in certain disadvantaged countries that is pretty much the only way to make a living.

Oh but were talking about TF's. Like most posters I think there's an ethical world of difference between an object that is vaugely similar to something you've produced and one that is trying to look exactly like your product and pass itself of as the same thing.

Although it can't be denied they both infringe on Hasbro's intelectual property.

[GoktimusPrime]

I think there are two arguments here - legal and ethical/moral.

Legal point: yes, both counterfeits and fan items infringe on HasTak's IP.

Ethical/moral point: counterfeits are direct violations and attempt to deceive consumers whereas fan items do not. Counterfeiters are primarily motivated by personal gain/profit whereas fan item producers are primarily motivated by their love for the franchise and dedication to the fandom. As I understand it the money they charge for these items is to cover the cost of manufacture, and not for profit. If they are substantially profiting from this, then it would change the ethical argument - but I'm working on the assumption that they're not-for-profit.

[dirge]

I think there are two arguments here - legal and ethical/moral.

Legal point: yes, both counterfeits and fan items infringe on HasTak's IP.

There's still a distinction here. The fan item producers are ensuring that they don't directly complete with Hasbro/TT, and are generally treading around flagrant _copyright_ infringement. Sure, they're clearly producing items related to Transformers, but they're not producing items to compete with Hasbro/TT's product.

I think it's fair to assume that Hasbro/TT had no plans to make anything like (for example) City Commander. Classics Ultra Magnus is one of _many_ white Ultra Magnus repaints produced to milk the mould (keeping R&D costs down), and we've never had power armour for any of those.

On the other hand, they may have had Mirage in their sights as a reissue before the KO producers flooded the market with imitations. The KO producers are clearly not worried about stepping on IP toes, and are in effect competing (in fact, illegally outcompeting) with Hasbro/TT's potential TCS/Encore Mirage.

[jaydisc]

There's still a distinction here. The fan item producers are ensuring that they don't directly complete with Hasbro/TT, and are generally treading around flagrant _copyright_ infringement. Sure, they're clearly producing items related to Transformers, but they're not producing items to compete with Hasbro/TT's product.

With Drift already out, and Defender and others announced, is this true anymore?

[dirge]

With Drift already out, and Defender and others announced, is this true anymore?

Sorry, I was referring to accessories, rather than "customs" as such. The actual characters are on the other side of that fence.

[jaydisc]

Do you guys think originally-packaged KO makers are being deceptive as well, e.g.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yes, but to a lesser degree than those who use counterfeit packaging.

[jaydisc]

Well, here is a perfect example:

Impossible Toys (makers of the Quints), have just announced plans to make a G1-styled Arcee. Personally, there is no doubt in my mind that this will have a negative effect on Hasbro's ability to sell Animated Arcee, as many G1 purists have publicly stated that they're only buying it due to a lack of a G1-styled alternative.

One could argue that this is even more damaging to Hasbro than say, a KO Sunstreaker, as the KO interferes more with the second hand market than with Hasbro directly.

I wonder how many of you here who deride KOs will also consider purchasing this?