The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[Lord_Zed]

Sorry if this has been asked but I've been away for the best part of 2 weeks and can't be arsed reading 12 pages. But what about the argument that things like "City Commander" have increased Hasbro's sales? I mean how many people didn't want a classics Magnus because it was another white Prime repaint? (God knows I was very close to selling mine) Then when news of "City Commander" came out how many people said "Awesome... now only if I had a classics Magnus"?

It's something I've thought about for a while and I would like to hear Hasbros retort.

*



*Way back in (post) issue #14. (Zealous Zed)
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpo...6&postcount=14

[MV75]

These aren't replicas of existing toys. This is no different to a mass produced fan made custom. That's already being discussed here

Jgon, I'm interested, happy to wait 1-3 months and don't care about packaging. Cheers.

Looks like a thomas the tank engine train to me in train mode.....

You might be thinking of these "bullet" trains:

http://www.netlaputa.ne.jp/~m-akao/G...S2/TOMAS2.html

[jaydisc]

The arguments I've heard here (note that these are not my arguments), is that a "KO" is intended to trick or deceive the purchaser, by not just stealing the likeness of a character, but attempting to clone an existing product's design in every way, even including packaging. I've also heard the argument that mass-produced-fan-made-customs fill a market gap that would otherwise not be filled (thus causing no loss of revenue to the IP owner), and while they might borrow a likeness, they still create their own physically unique product.

Based on those arguments, this seems to fall more in the fan-made-custom camp. Now, if you think this is a direct KO aka replica, please point me to the original, because I'd much prefer to buy that anyway.

Also, remember that this Soapbox is not really about the ethics of either position, but moreover the consistency of one's position. If I was running around reporting KOs to eBay, because I felt they infringed someone's IP, and then I went to buy this transforming train, this Soapbox argues that I would be hypocritical, and I agree.

However, in my case:

* I buy some fan made customs that infringe IP, and
* I don't report KOs for infringing IP

FWIW, I don't buy [what most here would call] KOs either, but I would never try to effect anyone else's ability to.

[kup]

This is an example of a KO trying to pass as a Fan kit:

http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=5450

The toy is not adding anything to an existing toy nor creating a new unique toy in the likeness of Hasbro's intellectual property. It's blatanly replicating HasTak's invested R&D into a scaled down unofficial toy which they are happy to sell and profit from without paying any royalties to the company that went through the procedure of creating the design.

It's not trying to trick anybody that its official but it is benefiting from the design and development of another. It's almost 100% Plagiarizing the engineering and design of a toy made by another company.

To me this is more in the realm of theft than any third party accessory kit or custom parts. I would indeed call this toy a KO.

[GoktimusPrime]

The term "knockoffs" is a term commonly used to refer to what is more properly known as counterfeit goods (reference).
Dictionary.com defines counterfeit as: "an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine" (source).

Fan-made items are not imitations intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine. For example, City Commander is clearly not intended to pass off as a G1 Ultra Magnus trailer/armour.

[TheDirtyDigger]

Just a sorta related question;

Do you think Matt Moylan of Lil' Formers fame would pay licensing or royalties to HasTak for his use of their characters?

[Sky Shadow]

Just a sorta related question;

Do you think Matt Moylan of Lil' Formers fame would pay licensing or royalties to HasTak for his use of their characters?

Interesting question. I'm almost certain the answer is 'no', particularly since his strips these days cover all sorts of different franchises (thus, there's no way he pays all of them and I'm guessing he doesn't pay any of them.) From a legal standpoint, I'd say that since what he's doing is parody, it may well constitute 'fair use'.

[kup]

Matt Moylan does have some level of officiality in lil'formers. I think that he is contracted to do strips in the Club magazine which is an official publication.

[STL]

Just a sorta related question;

Do you think Matt Moylan of Lil' Formers fame would pay licensing or royalties to HasTak for his use of their characters?

I don't think he's ultimately profiting or making money from them. In many ways, it's a creative endeavour that he shares with fans. And it's not really just limited to TFs either. He's not selling those strips; just using them as part of parody as Sky Shadow points out.

This is an example of a KO trying to pass as a Fan kit:

http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=5450

The toy is not adding anything to an existing toy nor creating a new unique toy in the likeness of Hasbro's intellectual property. It's blatanly replicating HasTak's invested R&D into a scaled down unofficial toy which they are happy to sell and profit from without paying any royalties to the company that went through the procedure of creating the design.

It's not trying to trick anybody that its official but it is benefiting from the design and development of another. It's almost 100% Plagiarizing the engineering and design of a toy made by another company.

To me this is more in the realm of theft than any third party accessory kit or custom parts. I would indeed call this toy a KO.

So what? I thought you said KOs are fraudulent and deceptive and that's why individuals such as yourself see them as wrong. How is this product a KO when it quite clearly makes its point that it is a resized MP. It's not trying to decieve, nor lie.

Mind you, I don't disagree with you that they are infringing the IP of Hasbro/Takara. But there's a really large hole in argument that tries to says its okay to steal IP as long as there's no deceptiion on fans but then say its not okay b/c they steal the IP of an already designed toy?

What's the difference between IP of a toy that Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in and the IP of a character/brand that Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in?

Not very much, I'm afraid.

[kup]

I don't think he's ultimately profiting or making money from them. In many ways, it's a creative endeavour that he shares with fans. And it's not really just limited to TFs either. He's not selling those strips; just using them as part of parody as Sky Shadow points out.



So what? I thought you said KOs are fraudulent and deceptive and that's why individuals such as yourself see them as wrong. How is this product a KO when it quite clearly makes its point that it is a resized MP. It's not trying to decieve, nor lie.

Mind you, I don't disagree with you that they are infringing the IP of Hasbro/Takara. But there's a really large hole in argument that tries to says its okay to steal IP as long as there's no deceptiion on fans but then say its not okay b/c they steal the IP of an already designed toy?

What's the difference between IP of a toy that Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in and the IP of a character/brand that Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in?

Not very much, I'm afraid.

So what you say?

Well one thing is creating an Ultra Magnus kit that is very loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property but is considerably different in engineering, design and appearance to anything that Hasbro has ever produced in the past as well as being something that there is absolutely no chance that Hasbro will ever do. Another is copying almost the exact design part by part of an existing official toy - down scaling it and then selling it without any royalties given to the creator than invested 95% of the overall Research, design and engineering.

- A fan kit is like an unofficial Addon Map pack for an existing Video game.

- This smaller MP Prime is like grabbing an existing game, copying it on a blank DVD with your own custom cover and then selling it as your own product.

As much difference as Apples and Oranges