The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[kup]

It was fun for a while but now I am tired of dancing around in circles with this topic. I have stated my point of view and why I disagree with your 'soap box' a few times already and no point going on and on repeating ourselves.

[Sky Shadow]

As I may have said before (possibly about a thousand posts ago in this thread), I've never bought a fan custom and I think I've only ever bought one knockoff - about ten years ago I bought a cheap plastic downsized version of Dreadwind and Darkwing from Woolworths for less than five dollars: I wanted to see how they transformed and combined since I'd never had a Dreadwind.

STL and Jaydisc - it seems like intellectual property is the main soapbox issue for you guys. By that logic, would it be okay for people to buy fan customs like this future proposal:



Or (assuming they have Scramble City pegs) are they a no-go as well? Personally, I'm all for Fansprojects turning in this sort of direction - I'm not interested in trailers or weapon accessories or hands for gestalts or whatever else is going on at the moment, but this sort of thing interests me. What would also interest me is - if something like Glacialbot did come to fruition - would he sell more, less or the same as the toys that do trespass on Hasbro's intellectual property?

[GoktimusPrime]

What this Soapbox has tried to contend though is that it’s not possible to occupy a moral high ground on KOs or even pseudo KOs (like iGear Prime) when we’re willing to venture out and purchase other items that stem from the very same infringement of IP. What moral high ground we have is tenuous at best. The Soapbox is not saying you can’t dislike KOs, you still can, but don’t think for a moment that they’re there’s some higher moral high ground you can stand aloft on b/c most of those reasons, quite unfortunately, are simply convenient truths.

Fan items don't attempt to deceive consumers whereas counterfeits do. From a legal perspective, I would agree that they are both IP infringements, but to very different degrees.

It's like say if I kill someone in self defence as opposed to actually plotting and executing a plan to kill them; from a legal POV the former would be an act of manslaughter whereas the latter is an act of murder. They're both still acts of killing, but the intent is completely different. As I understand it, murder is defined as killing someone with malice aforethought.

So I find the moral/ethical difference between fan items and counterfeits is that counterfeits are made with 'malicious intent'; i.e.: a specific intention to compete with legitimate products and deceive consumers. Fan items on the other hand are generally devoid of this malice.

I'm not a KO lover by any stretch of the imagination but I'm not a hypocrite either

So you don't buy unlicensed products then?

I don't buy unlicensed stuff, but personally I don't hold a real objection against fan items. I'm neither for nor against them. But I _do_ hold an objection against counterfeits though.

[jaydisc]

As I may have said before (possibly about a thousand posts ago in this thread), I've never bought a fan custom and I think I've only ever bought one knockoff - about ten years ago I bought a cheap plastic downsized version of Dreadwind and Darkwing from Woolworths for less than five dollars: I wanted to see how they transformed and combined since I'd never had a Dreadwind.

Then you sir, along with a select few others (Gok, Griffin, etc.), have what STL would refer to as a tenable position against KOs, should you choose to take it. Interestingly enough, I've not seen you as an outspoken person on that topic. Many can learn from you.

STL and Jaydisc - it seems like intellectual property is the main soapbox issue for you guys.

Well, not so much the issue, as consistency is, but infringement of IP happens to be the consistent theme connecting most MPFCs (Mass Produced Fan Customs - sick of typing it out) to KOs. Others keep getting confused by this. It isn't about being pro or anti KO. It isn't about being pro or anti MPFC. The line dividing the common definitions of the two are graying by the day (literally), and any reason given for deriding a KO can also be used to deride some MPFC, and any reason to defend an MPFC can be used to defend a KO. So it's about consistency. I'm not for or against any side. I'm simply anti-hypocrisy.

According to Kup, he feel he's entitled to an unlicensed product to complete an existing purchase because he saw a picture of it in an unofficially distributed prototype photo!!! Now, even if I can suspend my absolute bewilderment that that is a defense, conversely, why isn't Joey Joe Joe Shabadoo entitled to buy a KO Sunstreaker when the arm on his G1 original breaks off?

Why are group orders for repro parts permitted here but not repro bots? WhatTF is the difference? It's OK to bootleg a gun, but not a leg? WTF?!?!?!

By that logic, would it be okay for people to buy fan customs like this future proposal:



Or (assuming they have Scramble City pegs) are they a no-go as well? Personally, I'm all for Fansprojects turning in this sort of direction - I'm not interested in trailers or weapon accessories or hands for gestalts or whatever else is going on at the moment, but this sort of thing interests me. What would also interest me is - if something like Glacialbot did come to fruition - would he sell more, less or the same as the toys that do trespass on Hasbro's intellectual property?

I think the above is awesome, and like you, i fully support FP turning in this direction! After initially seeing this when shown, I had a hope and belief that Fans Project has simply used the Transformers fandom, along with some borrowed IP, as a stepping stone in order to get established as their own independent brand of transforming robots. I'm thrilled at the prospect of new toys of new characters from a new company that's more interested in catering to a more expensive, more demanding market that I would like to be part of.

Unfortunately though, I think it would sell less than their borrowed ideas. But, I think they're using the goodwill and publicity for those borrowed ideas so that when they do try to stand on their own feet, they'll have a big enough audience to keep them propped up. Go FP!

Fan items don't attempt to deceive consumers whereas counterfeits do.

We already covered this, but I would argue that most KO purchasers KNOW they are buying KOs, so while some KO resellers choose to use deception, many do not! (e.g. www.kotoys.com) One only has to go a few pages deep at other international forums to see that there is large collector demand for KOs. So, even if you were able to somehow successfully remove KO resellers ability to achieve sales by deception, market demand would still keep them in business.

Because you and others are not interested in that market, it's natural for you to not see it, and thus your only exposure to KOs is from resellers who try to push them off in your non-KO-endorsing marketplaces, so your assumption is natural. To the market that IS interested in KOs, those KOs are filling a market gap just like a crown for MP-8 or a smaller version of MP-1 fills a market gap for others.

[Kyle]

If I buy fan customs, then I have no right to be against KO.

If I hit my own kids, then I have no right to be against someone raping my own kids?

Is this the right logic?

I suppose if I smoke cigarette, then I have no right to be against taking hardcore drugs as well.

I think you’re being facetious here. And I won’t honour it with a petty retort. But to answer your overall point I would answer in the affirmative as the position is not one you can stand on given that both arise from the abuse of IP that they do not belong. I’ve given my reasons before. If you’d like I’d encourage you to address some of those questions I’ve posed above. It’s much harder to do than be facetious.

I don't remember you replying or addressing post #52 on this thread. That was convenient for you too?

Your questions were never difficult to be answered:

a.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they aren't currently using it? No
b.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they're " that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it "? No
c.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c its too expensive to purchase the whole item again (which happens to be an exclusive)? No
d.) Is it okay to steal another's IP if you aren't fraudulent and deceptive? No
e.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c they aren't currently producing it? No
f.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c you claim that your success is not built on this IP entirely? No

I never claimed FansProject to be entirely innocent. However, as others already pointed out, I still don't see FansProject to be as bad as KO. And I still don't see why just because I've been naughty in Mr Hasbro's classroom, I cannot point out or report another kid doing something else much worse. And Mr Hasbro has been naughty himself too. He teaches us from notes and books he took from others (eg Mr Lamorgini) without paying, but at least he didn't claim he invented Mathematics.

So if we buy Fan Customs then we can't be against KO. And if Hasbro infringed on others' IP (like Lamborgini) out of convenience then they're not supposed to stop others from making KO of Hasbro toys? Because then they would be hypocrites?

I don't consider Hasbro borrowing others' IP out of convenience to be as bad as making a full KO. However, I also don't see it as any better than what FansProject has been doing.

I consider FansProject to be at least creative. All their toys are created from scratch and not extrapolated from any existing toy mould. I just can't see them at the same level of KO.

I cannot speak for others. But if one day Hasbro releases their own Magnus Armour or Prime Trailer, then I would be buying them as well. Another problem is we are judging these fan products by what we think others might or might not do.

[jaydisc]

Maybe I can field some of these:

If I buy fan customs, then I have no right to be against KO.

Correct. That's the entire basis of the soapbox.

If I hit my own kids, then I have no right to be against someone raping my own kids?

Well, if we are really going to try to shoehorn this example in, it would be more apt to say that if you hit your own kids, that preaching against raping your own kids would be untenable.

I suppose if I smoke cigarette, then I have no right to be against taking hardcore drugs as well.

There's a few different angles here. If you complain that hardcore drug takers can't control their addiction, that would be untenable as you have an addiction.

This is a great example, worthy of its own soapbox, but there are many pro-alcohol, anti-drug people all over the world. Alcohol is one of the most debilitating, violence inducing drugs, and it's the legal one.

[1AZRAEL1]

I consider FansProject to be at least creative. All their toys are created from scratch and not extrapolated from any existing toy mould. I just can't see them at the same level of KO.

With the MiniMP Prime on its way, that mold is but at the same time isnt from scratch. They have taken the idea and mold and basically shrunk it down. Is that not what a Knockoff I saw of Fort Max? When you compare that, it doesnt seem different, but when you think about it, it is more for the fans to have a more scaled version of prime to be compared to Grimlock that HasTak released.

As most have stated, it is not all black and white, and everyone ill have there own opinions and won't budge on it.

We all have great arguments here, and I am not going to take sides. I have bought a few Fanmade projects, because they add something new that Has/Tak decided to leave out or not even think of.

[1AZRAEL1]

Alcohol is one of the most debilitating, violence inducing drugs, and it's the legal one.

And tastes soooooooo good

And without getting too much into it, anyone with the willpower can break out of an addiction. I drank alot, so much that I cant remember most of 2006. But I broke out of that and drink socially now, and get drunk on the rare occasions.

[Robzy]

I drank alot, so much that I cant remember most of 2006.

You didn't miss much... Galvatron and his cronies travelled back in time to 1986. Unicron took control of Hot Rod, Kup & Blurr and made them do things.

Nothing special!

[Hereticpoo]

I buy fan customs, and I report Ko's on ebay.

So if that makes me hypocritical and/or morally corrupt I only have two solutions;

A) Continue to love and buy Fan made, and cease KO reports on ebay.
The result making me non-hypocritical, but the report I don't make might cause some unwitting sucker to be ripped-off.

B) Don't by Fans mades, continue to report Ko's, and go with the Hastak flow.
The result making me non-hypocritical and Morally superior, with a naked Ultra Magnus to boot. But I'll feel good because nothing is better than a warm cup of righteousness.

Hmmm....I'll go with A!

Maybe we could have a Poll? Just to finalise everyone's positions and put an end to the mystery?