The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[Kyle]

With the MiniMP Prime on its way, that mold is but at the same time isnt from scratch. They have taken the idea and mold and basically shrunk it down. Is that not what a Knockoff I saw of Fort Max? When you compare that, it doesnt seem different, but when you think about it, it is more for the fans to have a more scaled version of prime to be compared to Grimlock that HasTak released.

Did you mix up FansProject and iGear? I personally see iGear's "mini MP Prime" as a definite KO because it is just a scaled copy of an existing toy:

http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showth...?t=5450&page=3

They're just asking for trouble, and will get Hasbro to bring the hammer down on the actual fan kit makers.

Their products have no real creativity. And there have been rumours they were the ones who've been KO-ing the works of other fan kit makers.

[1AZRAEL1]

Did you mix up FansProject and iGear? I personally see iGear's "mini MP Prime" as a definite KO because it is just a scaled copy of an existing toy

I think I may have, but there are too many to count. They just keep popping up all over the place. They were the ones that made the LED gun as well arent they?

Point is, I see them as making a toy for the fans that is more in scale with the Grimlock that was released.

[GoktimusPrime]

Well, if we are really going to try to shoehorn this example in, it would be more apt to say that if you hit your own kids, that preaching against raping your own kids would be untenable

Are you saying that if a parent believes in and uses corporal punishment, then they don't have any moral ground to complain if someone sexually assaults their kids?

Most parents who are pro-corporal punishment aren't advocates of child abuse. They don't hit their kids with the intention of abusing them, if anything they do it as an act of love. I personally don't agree with corporal punishment (I'm more of an advocate for the Behaviour-Consequences model), but at the same time I don't deny that people who are pro-corporal also have their children's best interests at heart, and they also discipline their children out of love, not malice.

I don't know how an act of love, even if you and I strongly disagree with it, can be compared with something as henious as sexual assault. You could argue that corporal punishment is a form of physical abuse, but again the underlying motivation is completely different - there is NO malice.

And parents who believe in corporal punishment aren't necessarily the same as those who physically abuse their children. There's a difference between spanking your child because s/he's done something naughty, as opposed to bashing your child up because you're drunk and you had a crap day. Again it all boils down to intent.

Apples and oranges are both citrus fruits.

[Sky Shadow]

Apples and oranges are both citrus fruits.

Except for apples, which aren't citrus fruits. Which leaves oranges.

[jaydisc]

I'm not digressing into a discussion about child-rearing. It was a ludicrous analogy to being with. Your Parenting Thread is here.

[GoktimusPrime]

1. It was actually Kyle who first introduced the child abuse analogy. Then you responded to it ("Well, if we are really going to try to shoehorn this example in,"), so I in turn responded to that. So it was never about me trying to redirect this discussion into one about parenting - it was an _analogy_.

2. How is it any more or less ludicrous than other analogies that have been presented?
e.g.: stealing, killing etc. - the point I was trying to make is that there are different moral and legal grounds concerning even the same acts depending on the intent and motivations behind those acts.

e.g.:
+ stealing because you're starving vs. stealing to make money
+ manslaughter vs. murder (they're both forms of killing)

Which comes down to:
+ infringing IP to create products that don't exist vs. infringing IP to counterfeit already existing products

What I'm saying is that _intent_ and _motive_ are factors which ought to be taken into account.

[Kyle]

I'm not digressing into a discussion about child-rearing. It was a ludicrous analogy to being with.

My bad.

[Hereticpoo]

Except for apples, which aren't citrus fruits. Which leaves oranges.

Hilarious! Tear inducing Laughter!

[d*r*j*]

About KOs

Hasbro appears to have sold a large selection of moulds in china. It is a pretty common theory on the internet that Hasbro just pretty much dumped everything when transformers lost popularity. It was the thinking of the time that everything was over. They sold the factories, moulds, plans, machines that print the boxs etc. They didn't store their property properly nor did they dispose of it thoughtfully... Like it or not but they are responsible 100% for this mess, they didn't count on this nostalgia boom... all they ever do is what is profitable for themselves.

Would you buy all this up and not use it?

About IP stealing new products

It's great. In this day and age competition should be encouraged. Hasbro has shown that they are not willing to care about the adult collector market at all. If they cared they would have gone to china (you can go anywhere online now) and offered these talented designers jobs. What they did was typically american "you can't do that, it's mine!! I'll sue!" whatever.

[STL]

You didn't miss much... Galvatron and his cronies travelled back in time to 1986. Unicron took control of Hot Rod, Kup & Blurr and made them do things.

Nothing special!

Now someone’s gonna have light their darkest hour! :P

I think I may have, but there are too many to count. They just keep popping up all over the place. They were the ones that made the LED gun as well arent they?

Point is, I see them as making a toy for the fans that is more in scale with the Grimlock that was released.

That’s certainly how I see it. It’s more in scale with the BTs and MP-08 and that’s their reason for doing it.

I'm not digressing into a discussion about child-rearing. It was a ludicrous analogy to being with. Your Parenting Thread is here.

That’s exactly why I wasn’t gonna touch it. Not even with a forty foot pole.

I don't remember you replying or addressing post #52 on this thread. That was convenient for you too?

My sincerest apologies for missing it. With the degree of posts in this thread, I was bound to be remiss at some point. And if anyone else feels I’ve missed their points, I apologise and will respectfully respond if you point it out to me.

Just because HasTak does not rely on the infringements it makes to succeed in selling toys (this is still debatable), then the infringements it makes are no longer infringements?

If I don't need to steal but I go ahead and steal from a shop anyway, is it a lesser offence than someone who steals from myself?

But my response is that I don't think it absolves Hasbro/Takara if they are touching on other's IP but two wrongs also do not make a right.

I suppose if I smoke cigarette, then I have no right to be against taking hardcore drugs as well.

I think there's a high degree of provocative flippancy within your tone in this statement and the ones that preceded it and I've felt it most apt to sidestep that to avoid digression onto awkward discussions on other social issues. Mind you, I do not think that is the best way to conduct oneself across the board when trying to convey a point but if that's what the board passes as okay these days then perhaps we should all start posting like that in other threads. To answer your overall point; I completely agree FP have a high degree of creativity. It's truly breathtaking a lot of the stuff that they produce and I have no problem with buying it. My only problem is how one can maintain some air of moral superiority when what they support stems from the very same infringement - theft of someone else's IP. As Griffin pointed out there is a spectrum of products but at their most fundamental level they all include theft of IP. If you are more creative in terms of what you do, does that make it okay? So I steal a part of the block of land u no longer use and build a spectacular waterfall, that's okay as long as its wonderfully creative? I think not. I don't have a problem with either KOs or mass customs. I just think there needs to be a recognition that they only ever exist b/c you are stealing someone's IP. You can't steal from someone and then rationalise that it's okay b/c of whatever reason you conveniently want to use.

And yes, I do acknowledge that i think there is theft of IP by all along Griffin's spectrum but the very reason why I don't really care is b/c to me, as Kyle points out, there are a lot more important moral issues out there. Some that are substantially more weighty. I just refuse to be hypocritical b/c I full well realise that both stem from the same infringement and the moral high ground shouldn't be taken on one but not the other.

f.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c you claim that your success is not built on this IP entirely? No

I never claimed FansProject to be entirely innocent. However, as others already pointed out, I still don't see FansProject to be as bad as KO. And I still don't see why just because I've been naughty in Mr Hasbro's classroom, I cannot point out or report another kid doing something else much worse. And Mr Hasbro has been naughty himself too. He teaches us from notes and books he took from others (eg Mr Lamorgini) without paying, but at least he didn't claim he invented Mathematics.

I just can't see them at the same level of KO.

I cannot speak for others. But if one day Hasbro releases their own Magnus Armour or Prime Trailer, then I would be buying them as well. Another problem is we are judging these fan products by what we think others might or might not do.

Firstly, I do want to clarify again that I’m not attacking FP by any stretch of the imagination. I’m not supporting anti-KOs. I’m not supporting anti-fan customs. I’m simply trying to make the point it’s very hard to reconcile how you can deride one but not the other. Both stem exist and only exist b/c of the very same reason. You steal someone’s IP and produce something based on it whose complete success relies on that IP.

To inadvertently answer Sky Shadow’s query, the creativity behind designing an all new transforming toy is not the same. I think those are legit. In many ways, they are competitors b/c they focus on making a transforming toy as opposed to stealing the character developed and nurtured by Hasbro. Why do we get unhappy that when we get Hardshell instead of Bombshell? Tankor instead of Octane? What’s in a name you say? An awful lot. B/c of the time, money and energy put into developing that trademark. That’s IP. To build your own transforming toy is something I’d definitely support as I do like transforming toys and not dependent on the IP of another. KOs and fan customs, wherever they sit on the spectrum breach that. You cannot steal something and after the fact try and justify it with whatever convenient reason there is.

And nor do I see fan customs as being exactly the same thing as KOs. I do appreciate that they sit somewhere else along the spectrum. But the fact is though the very reasons anyone wants to use to justify the existence of one in favour of the other can be twisted to justify the existence of the other. If you want to chastise one you have to chastise the other b/c they exist b/c of the very same reason: theft of IP. To do otherwise is a pretty hypocritical situation.

And lastly, even if we agree that Hasbro/Takara are stealing IP themselves, two wrongs do not make a right.

I buy fan customs, and I report Ko's on ebay.

So if that makes me hypocritical and/or morally corrupt I only have two solutions;

A) Continue to love and buy Fan made, and cease KO reports on ebay.
The result making me non-hypocritical, but the report I don't make might cause some unwitting sucker to be ripped-off.

B) Don't by Fans mades, continue to report Ko's, and go with the Hastak flow.
The result making me non-hypocritical and Morally superior, with a naked Ultra Magnus to boot. But I'll feel good because nothing is better than a warm cup of righteousness.

Hmmm....I'll go with A!

Maybe we could have a Poll? Just to finalise everyone's positions and put an end to the mystery?

Which is pretty much what I’ve done. Ironically enough it wasn’t all that long ago, maybe a year, that I was spouting hatred of KOs. Funny how things work out, huh?

I don’t think we need a poll though b/c it’s clearly that not everyone agrees but I think there’s some challenging times ahead and the issues become more and more blurry. I think it was a very worthwhile discussion to have though.

e.g.:
+ stealing because you're starving vs. stealing to make money
+ manslaughter vs. murder (they're both forms of killing)

I don’t want to get into these analogies and will not argue those. As with some of the child rape ones which are inherently loaded and flippant, I think to compare this (stealing of IP) to murder is quite far fetched. To compare it to stealing b/c you’re starving? I don’t want to go any further but are you trying to compare fan customs to starving people? People who are struggling to get by? That’s a bit rich.

Or are you comparing the motives and intent of fan customs to those of charitable organisations? That they’re pure and noble? Again, isn’t that a bit rich? Especially when you have to steal first to be pure and noble of intent and motive?

Which comes down to:
+ infringing IP to create products that don't exist vs. infringing IP to counterfeit already existing products

What I'm saying is that _intent_ and _motive_ are factors which ought to be taken into account.

I think we do try and compute why a KO or mass custom has been built. As you and others have pointed out, there are a number of reasons. Some better than others. Some less so than others.

But let me put it this way:

So I steal from you what’s rightfully yours and then turn around and say to you “well you weren’t using it anyway.” Would any of us like that?

So I find the moral/ethical difference between fan items and counterfeits is that counterfeits are made with 'malicious intent'; i.e.: a specific intention to compete with legitimate products and deceive consumers. Fan items on the other hand are generally devoid of this malice.

So you don't buy unlicensed products then?

I don't buy unlicensed stuff, but personally I don't hold a real objection against fan items. I'm neither for nor against them. But I _do_ hold an objection against counterfeits though.

Which as I’ve previously said you’re perfectly entitled too. You don’t buy either. It’s those that buy one yet deride the other as if they’re some unholy evil.

When you say malicious then, if a producer of a KO is completely open and discloses that it is a KO then is it okay? They’re not deceiving anyone then, are they? How can they be malicious? Isn’t that validating the existence of KOs? KOers as I said could be viewed that they are simply producing something that Hasbro/Takara have said in the past that they have no intention of producing. They do the research that Hasbro/Takara find too expensive to do by recasting the molds and put it out there so people have the opportunity to buy a nice minty version of a vintage toy. Is that all okay then for a KO to exist?

Again, please don’t see this as defending KOs. It isn’t. It’s trying to point out many of the reasons for mass-customs can be applied to KOs. And the reason that is, is b/c they steal IP that is desirable in the first place – whether it be in a mold or a character. KOers aren’t going to produce Go-Bots. Mass-customs aren’t going to produce Go-Bot accessories. And the fundamental reason for that is b/c there is no value in that.

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While I have enjoyed this discussion, I do have to agree with Kup that this is becoming rather circular.. Hence why my subtle suggestion in my previous post to let's finish this. I think all points of views have been conveyed and the positions set out and at the very least this is an issue that's been raised and put out there. I don't think it'll go away and we'll see more fan customs to come that test the very boundaries. That said, if there is further debate, I do certainly welcome it.