The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[kup]

The Garage kits have actually encouraged people to buy HasTak products that they would have otherwise ignored.

Before City Commander, Classics Ultra Magnus was a 'meh' white Prime - Now his demand is considerable.

Arguably the same thing is happening to the Universe/Movie packaged Superion Maximus repaint.

A KO tries to deceive the buyer into thinking it is a complete legitimate product so that you would buy it instead of the real thing.

Comparing Garage/custom kits with KOs makes no sense to me. Also like mentioned, the garage kits often exist because Hasbro did not satisfyingly 'complete' the product to satisfaction of some costumers but at the same time it does note impede on their sales, on the contrary.

[TheDirtyDigger]

The Garage kits have actually encouraged people to buy HasTak products that they would have otherwise ignored.

Before City Commander, Classics Ultra Magnus was a 'meh' white Prime - Now his demand is considerable.

Arguably the same thing is happening to the Universe/Movie packaged Superion Maximus repaint.

A KO tries to deceive the buyer into thinking it is a complete legitimate product so that you would buy it instead of the real thing.

Comparing Garage/custom kits with KOs makes no sense to me. Also like mentioned, the garage kits often exist because Hasbro did not satisfyingly 'complete' the product to satisfaction of some costumers but at the same time it does note impede on their sales, on the contrary.

I agree.

[jaydisc]

Not to pick on you specifically Kup, but you have concisely said two points that others have agreed with that I want to comment on:

The Garage kits have actually encouraged people to buy HasTak products that they would have otherwise ignored.

Before City Commander, Classics Ultra Magnus was a 'meh' white Prime - Now his demand is considerable.

The argument I believe STL is putting forth is that if Hasbro was to later consider making a non-repaint Ultra Magnus, the business viability of such a product has been negatively affected because they are competing against someone that has not legally licensed their IP. Hasbro would have to assess the same viability if while considering whether or not to reissue a figure that has been KO'd. This is even clearer for free standing figures such as Drift or Defender.

A KO tries to deceive the buyer into thinking it is a complete legitimate product so that you would buy it instead of the real thing.

The KO itself? The KO reseller? or the KO Manufacturer? These are all different entities with different motivations.

The KO itself does nothing

KO resellers have indeed been known to use deceptive tactics. You can even use the word "most", but that fact is far from universal. www.kotoys.com is very clear about what you are buying, as are many other KO resellers.

The KO manufacturer, on the other hand, is simply someone trying to make money by making a product based on someone else's IP, in order for to save R & D costs and garner demand. These are the same motives of a large-scale customizer. I don't believe that KO manufacturers practice deception. Like any other manufacturer, they sell to distributors or resellers. I have only ever heard of one public situation where resellers unknowingly received KOs when ordering otherwise. For the most part, the resellers that sell KOs, know full well that they are buying KOs.

I believe it is toward the KO manufacturers that STL is drawing his comparison and not to the resellers, which many of you have inferred.

[kup]

Sorry, I disagree - deception is at the heart of KO manufacturers or there would be a big stamp on the box saying 'Non official product'.

In regards to Hasbro being denied the possibility to do Ultra Magnus with armor in the future due to City Commander - I doubt it very much it was even on their radar. I actually believe that its now more possible for Hasbro to do such things due to the success of City Commander but not before. Now they are more likely to pay attention instead of doing something half a$$ed because they know that a third party will then come out and benefit from their shortcomings - Yeah a garage kit upgrade means that an otherwise mediocre hasbro product will have more demand but I doubt Hasbro likes other companies benefiting from their short comings either.

HasTak had years to produce a G1 Ultra Magnus with armor but instead went forth with white Primes which got old quickly and naturally costumers became skeptical that it would ever happen and so did Fan Projects to their benefit.

[STL]

Sorry, I disagree - deception is at the heart of KO manufacturers or there would be a big stamp on the box saying 'Non official product'.

I agree with the issue of deception. it's discussed above and while I completely take on board its dillutive effect on the collector market and frustration that comes with, it's ultimately not our place to kick up a stink (I'm not happy about G1 KOers either, mind you). Who owns the IP? Who should have ultimate authority to use their IP and their characters? Hasbro. It's not for anybody else to determine what to supply the market when ultimately the IP belongs to Hasbro. Yes, deception is an issue. But the bigger issue is the 1st infringement that allowed the deception to take place: the taking of IP belonging to Hasbro/Takara. That infringement is the one and the same to all those infringement that mass-customisers make.

In regards to Hasbro being denied the possibility to do Ultra Magnus with armor in the future due to City Commander - I doubt it very much it was even on their radar. I actually believe that its now more possible for Hasbro to do such things due to the success of City Commander but not before. Now they are more likely to pay attention instead of doing something half a$$ed because they know that a third party will then come out and benefit from their shortcomings - Yeah a garage kit upgrade means that an otherwise mediocre hasbro product will have more demand but I doubt Hasbro likes other companies benefiting from their short comings either.

HasTak had years to produce a G1 Ultra Magnus with armor but instead went forth with white Primes which got old quickly and naturally costumers became skeptical that it would ever happen and so did Fan Projects to their benefit.

City Commander gave rise to demand for Classics 1.0 Ultra Magnus? That's the after market, a market that Hasbro does not get a cut of. Hasbro gains no benefit whatsoever. It's an extrenely weak argument. And further, once again, it returns itself to one simple fact: Hasbro/Takara own the rights to TFs. Nobody else. It is not the place of anybody else, fans included, to determine what should be produced, what are the opportunities within the market. These are not decisions anyone else is able to make and exploit except Hasbro/Takara. It is their right. Not the mass customiser. Nor the KOer. Nor the fan. You cannot go out there and produce something based on someone else's IP and profit on it just b/c there's a new opportunity there. You don't have that right in the 1st place. It is not your right. You can't go out there and make a new version of the Matrix DVD boxset w/ better packaging and extras b/c you feel that the manufacturer made a substandard offering. It's not your place. By the same token then, the mass-customiser and the KOer can't do that either. They have no right to. They therefore are culpable of committing the same infringement.

I'm by no means judging anybody for buying mass-customised product. I myself do and openly acknowledge it. But what I'm trying to do is shed light on the moral hypocrisy we are embarking on. We have not a foot to stand on on KOers if we can accept the mass-customiser as ultimately that's a double standard,

[STL]

Not me. I don't buy any toy that's not manufactured under licence from Hasbro or Takara. So yeah, it's kinda moot for me too.

And I very much respect. that. I can't say the same for myself though so I can't deride KO producers or mass-customisers and that's really my contention. Unless we do what you do and not participate at all, we really have no leg to stand on.

Sky Shadow brings up a good point about deception/fraud. The problem with knock offs over garage kits is that they are counterfeit items which attempt to deceive consumers into thinking that they are legitimate. And certainly many collectors have been burned spending their money on KOs believing them to be legitimate.

Garage kits like City Commander are NOT a counterfeit imitation of an existing product. The people who make them are making NO pretense that their products are manufactured under licence. It is legally dubious in terms of its visual similarity with Ultra Magnus --- but even then, only the trailer/armour, not the entire robot. I thought that you could copy a certain percentage of someone's intellectual property; like they do with parodies. And of course, the producers of these kits go to lengths to try and avoid/dodge direct affiliation with HasTak's intellectual property; such as not:
+ using the trademarked names like "Transformers," "Ultra Magnus" etc. anywhere
+ the illustration of "Classics Prime" in the comic book instruction is highly obscured and also distinctively modified from the actual toy... so it's an ambiguous looking transforming robot that bears striking similarity to Classics Optimus Prime, but it's NOT an imitation of that toy! (again, they could claim to have modified 10% of the toy's image)

Garage kits are kinda like software and hardware that people make that just happen to be compatible with products made by companies like IBM, but not actually made by those companies. How many of us have "IBM compatible" PCs?

What most of us consider to be "knock offs" on the other hand would be toys that attempt to deceive consumers into thinking that their counterfeits are legit. So morally speaking I think that garage kits and knock offs are two different things because one is not attempting to deceive consumers whereas the other is.

I think that's neither here nor there as the deception argument isn't what comes first. The infringement is. We are trying to rationalise the infringement and quality it b/c of its deception. Does it make it okay if there is an infringement of Hasbro/Takara's IP as long as its offering something that's original? Or something that is an add on? I think not. The deception isn't the primary issue. In fact, you'd argue that FansProjects comic trying to be ambiguous about the transforming figure in its comic is aimed at blurring the legal line. That's there intention and that in some shape or form is deception. Henceforth, there is ultimately no leg to stand on as at its core both offerings, KO or mass-custom project, are predicated on the infringement of IP of Hasbro/Takara.

If the customisers will give me what Hasbro wont then i really dont care who's profitting. Its a Sh!t thing to say but dems the cards we're dealt!

And tbh that's really the very heart of it. We should buy what makes us content but the only thing is we need to be wary of making moral judgements on what is right and wrong as we're not the best ones, with the exception of those who refuse to buy non-office product, in the position to say so anymore.

[Kyle]

I really feel like replying to this thread. But my opinion will be very biased so I better not...

[jaydisc]

Sorry, I disagree - deception is at the heart of KO manufacturers or there would be a big stamp on the box saying 'Non official product'.

Not true. There is market demand for a substitution to more expensive, less fresh vintage goods. And it only takes a quick trip to any KO related news article to see so:

From Seibertron:

Wonder how much they'd let it go for? I still need a sunstreaker. I dont care if i have a KO or a real one as long as the price is right.

To TFW2005

I feel all warm and fuzzy when I see these. Because I can pick up something that looks like the real thing for a lot cheaper than a sealed original. I thought Slag was also being worked on because prototypes showed up a while back with Sludge and Slag. I hope they finish the Dinobots.

I hope if Takara/Tomy doesn't do Shockwave we can get one in a G1 box from these guys.

Do you think he wants a big stamp on his box?

Now, as always, this raises the hairs on the back of necks and even induces MV75 to threaten with chilling effects, so watch out!

I don't think anyone is trying to condone KOs, but if you really think you're morally superior when you buy a large-scale, manufactured TF likeness as opposed to a KO, you're just rationalizing and deceiving yourself.

[MV75]

The Garage kits have actually encouraged people to buy HasTak products that they would have otherwise ignored.

Before City Commander, Classics Ultra Magnus was a 'meh' white Prime - Now his demand is considerable.

Arguably the same thing is happening to the Universe/Movie packaged Superion Maximus repaint.

A KO tries to deceive the buyer into thinking it is a complete legitimate product so that you would buy it instead of the real thing.

Comparing Garage/custom kits with KOs makes no sense to me. Also like mentioned, the garage kits often exist because Hasbro did not satisfyingly 'complete' the product to satisfaction of some costumers but at the same time it does note impede on their sales, on the contrary.

Agreed.

The difference is that a ko is a blatent attempt to decieve people who think they're buying the real thing.

The "customisers" are value adding and don't use/take away any past or currently held IP.

HUGE difference, and to compare them as equals deserves an anti soapbox soapbox on it's own.

[TheDirtyDigger]

You cannot go out there and produce something based on someone else's IP and profit on it just b/c there's a new opportunity there.

Yes you can, as proven by FansProject, natobot, igear, Impossible Toys and others.