Articulation

[SharkyMcShark]

Underrated? That line was hugely popular and quite successful! RiD toys were _flying_ off shelves here long before the cartoon aired. And a lot of people were already importing Car Robot stuff before Hasbro even decided to do RiD.

I'd say a lot of that had a lot to do with the end of the beast era and a move back towards realistic alt modes (which is kind of understandable really - I didn't peg it at the time being 7 years old, but after 13 years of realistic alt modes, space ships, and the occasional robotic animal being told 'okay we're making animal transformers for like the next 4 odd years' must have been a big shock).

I meant more in terms of how it's remembered - no one ever really refers to it in discussion of various continuities and the like.

[GoktimusPrime]

In honesty we've not gone forwards that much since the Transmetal and fuzor era - look at the beasts we've gotten recently and the only one with decent articulation is Ravage (and he doesn't even have a bot mode!)

1: The jaguar mode is the robot mode! The alt mode is the dubiously named (and crappy looking) "re-entry" mode.
2: The robot mode is _not_ a true organic-looking beast mode. It's a robot beast mode, which as I mentioned is easier to incorporate articulation compared to organic beast modes for aesthetic reasons. And as Lord_Zed pointed out, even then it's not that greatly articulated anyway.

Other recent beasts are Grimlock (classics and animated), Snarl and Swoop (animated), Snarl/Darkwolf (or whatever his name was, Cybertron), and Skorponok haven't been that articulated at all.

All still not "true" beast modes.

The beast modes are alt modes - as I said before, the alt modes are typically secondary to the action Transformer (robot) mode. And again, it's difficult to incorporate articulation in a secondary mode without compromising the primary mode. For example, if you made any of the Animated Dinobots more articulated, then there would have to be a trade off because you're incorporating more moving parts. More parts = more expensive to manufacture = more expensive to purchase.

Remember that HasTak gives every Transformer toy a strictly defined budget. The toy cannot exceed this budget otherwise it becomes more expensive for HasTak to manufacture the product - an expense which would have to be passed onto the consumer. And this is something that HasTak is usually not willing to do because it's not good business practice. For example, you _could_ have a Deluxe Class Transformer with high articulation in robot and beast mode... but would most people pay $40-50 for it? Probably not. It's for this reason that often cooler features in toys are sacrificed in toys because they exceed the toy's budget restriction (e.g. prototype Godbomber (compare with actual Godbomber)).

Where articulation is concerned, priority is given to the robot mode over the alt mode, and that's fine by me considering the alternative.

I meant more in terms of how it's remembered - no one ever really refers to it in discussion of various continuities and the like.

Storywise Car Robot/RiD is... okay. Not fantastic but not terrible either. It's clearly a story that was written for a young child audience, but doesn't hold much to engage adult audiences (which is what makes other series like G1 and Beast Wars more memorable to collectors). Toywise I think Car Robot/RiD is fondly remembered. Car Robot was also the inspiration for Binaltech/Alternators (which in turn led to Alternity).

after 13 years of realistic alt modes, space ships, and the occasional robotic animal

11 years (1984-95)

being told 'okay we're making animal transformers for like the next 4 odd years' must have been a big shock).

It was a massive change, but aside from the occasional Trukk Not Munky, Beast Wars was very soon embraced and loved by the majority of the fandom. In 1995 Transformers was on the brink of extinction, but after Beast Wars came out Transformers became the 3rd best selling boys toy in the United States (after Star Wars and Toy Story). The impressive toy sales prompted Hasbro to then commission Mainframe Entertainment to create a CG animated cartoon series and the rest is history.

[SharkyMcShark]

1: The jaguar mode is the robot mode! The alt mode is the dubiously named (and crappy looking) "re-entry" mode.

I know. You clearly know what I meant.

2: The robot mode is _not_ a true organic-looking beast mode. It's a robot beast mode, which as I mentioned is easier to incorporate articulation compared to organic beast modes for aesthetic reasons. And as Lord_Zed pointed out, even then it's not that greatly articulated anyway.

It's better than the norm (I'm thinking of the torso balljoint and upper leg swivels speicifically). Although the head and tail are weakpoints theyre no worse than other transformers.

All still not "true" beast modes.

Hey, the horribly worded OP is mentioning Beast Machines. If anyone can find me an actual rea life wasp that looks like BM Buzzsaw I'll be happy to concede the point.

The beast modes are alt modes - as I said before, the alt modes are typically secondary to the action Transformer (robot) mode. And again, it's difficult to incorporate articulation in a secondary mode without compromising the primary mode. For example, if you made any of the Animated Dinobots more articulated, then there would have to be a trade off because you're incorporating more moving parts. More parts = more expensive to manufacture = more expensive to purchase.

Remember that HasTak gives every Transformer toy a strictly defined budget. The toy cannot exceed this budget otherwise it becomes more expensive for HasTak to manufacture the product - an expense which would have to be passed onto the consumer. And this is something that HasTak is usually not willing to do because it's not good business practice. For example, you _could_ have a Deluxe Class Transformer with high articulation in robot and beast mode... but would most people pay $40-50 for it? Probably not. It's for this reason that often cooler features in toys are sacrificed in toys because they exceed the toy's budget restriction (e.g. prototype Godbomber (compare with actual Godbomber)).

Where articulation is concerned, priority is given to the robot mode over the alt mode, and that's fine by me considering the alternative.

Unless you're trying to say that Hasbro has either significanly lowered their production budget for the AEC and subsequent lines* that really is irrelevant. The only other budgetary point you could make is that maybe money's gone into spring loaded missiles (so so popular in AEC, and yet not in BW/BM) which would explain that other areas of the design have had to take a hit (manifesting as lowered beast mode articulation)

Storywise Car Robot/RiD is... okay. Not fantastic but not terrible either. It's clearly a story that was written for a young child audience, but doesn't hold much to engage adult audiences (which is what makes other series like G1 and Beast Wars more memorable to collectors).

I thought they were top but then that might have more to do with watching them as a 12 year old on saturday mornings.

The G1 cartoons held even less than RiD to stimulate the minds of adult viewers.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's better than the norm (I'm thinking of the torso balljoint and upper leg swivels speicifically). Although the head and tail are weakpoints theyre no worse than other transformers.

It's not a really fair comparison to put Ravage's primary robot mode against other Transformers' secondary alt (beast) modes. Articulation is always prioritised to the primary mode. And to be fair ROTF Ravage's secondary mode is just as unarticulated as any other beast moded TF's secondary mode. If you're going to examine Ravage's robot mode then you need to also likewise compare it with other Transformers' robot modes. I find it somewhat odd to compare the articulation in ROTF Ravage's primary robot mode with any other Transformer's secondary alt mode.

Also, putting more articulation in beast modes can sometimes be arguably counter-productive - particularly with insects and arachnids. Take Transmetal Scavenger for example... the legs are highly articulated, but struggle to support the weight of the toy, thus Scavenger has a tendency to sit on his belly rather than stand upright in beast mode. Beast Machines Blackarachnia gave us a big improvement in terms of having articulated legs that could still support the toy well - but her legs are less poseable than Scavenger's (i.e. swivel joints vs. ball socket joints).

Hey, the horribly worded OP is mentioning Beast Machines.

DRIFT!!

If anyone can find me an actual rea life wasp that looks like BM Buzzsaw I'll be happy to concede the point.

Yeah well, there's a reason why the BM Maximals shelf-warmed so badly for so long!

But as I said before, a lot of the better articulated beast modes came from figures that no longer transform into realistic looking beasts. It's easier to engineer joints into a less organic looking beast mode without 'breaking up' the organic aesthetic of the mode. Having said that, BM Buzzsaw has _crap_ articulation in beast mode (the legs are completely stagnant).

Unless you're trying to say that Hasbro has either significanly lowered their production budget for the AEC and subsequent lines* that really is irrelevant. The only other budgetary point you could make is that maybe money's gone into spring loaded missiles (so so popular in AEC, and yet not in BW/BM) which would explain that other areas of the design have had to take a hit (manifesting as lowered beast mode articulation)

Yeah, _everything_ in a toy is budgeted for. Every gimmick, every accessory... even down to every last drop of paint is strictly budgeted (hence why sometimes the actual product doesn't feature as many paint apps as the prototype, e.g. the red heads on Animated Deluxe Bumblebee's booster rockets). Armada and Energon toys are often criticised for sacrificing things like poseability and engineering etc. for gimmicks -- hence the infamous expression...

The G1 cartoons held even less than RiD to stimulate the minds of adult viewers.

That's debatable... but considering that this thread is about toy articulation discussion about fictional canon would be somewhat off topic.

[christalcase]

I agree with GoktimusPrime on this one, Beast Wars actually had beasts/animals/insects etc transforming into robots, whereas ROTF Ravage transforms into some weird thing that just looks like his legs are covering his head

so they're completely different in terms of engineering, whereas BW toys have to hide robot-only bits and pieces... Ravage doesn't really have to hide as much stuff

anyway if you have too much articulation, you'll have more joints, and with time, the joints become loose, so even if the beast modes could stand back when they were brand new, they'll start to sag and eventually your toy won't be able to support it's own weight