The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

[Kyle]

Some thoughts/observations:

- KO makers try hard to pretend their KO's are the real deals produced by the real company, while certain fan items (not all) try hard to pretend their works are not related to the real deals or the real company. I find this parallel funny.

- Some of us are treating the support for fan items as having an affair and we're not faithful to our wife (HasTak). We think it's wrong but it feels good to do it. Are we all treating our relationship with HasTak like a real "marriage"?

- I like this topic "the Convenient Truth":

Also interesting how Hasbro itself has been infringing on others' intellectual properties. I wonder if Hasbro ever approached Lamborgini for a license for their Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker and Sideswipe? Whether they did or not they ended up releasing the toys anyway. Maybe they were willing to ignore and forgive themselves with the occasional ones here and there. As a fan I'm more than happy that they released the toys for us though.

HasTak released MANY vehicles/jets/whatever related toys in the past. Did they pay licencing fee for all of them? I think the licencing they paid for the Binaltech/Alternators/Movie/Alternaties/ROTF was certainly a good new direction for them. But when they mentioned they've been taken advantage of in the recent BotCon, it was very convenient for them to forget their own past. I'm not saying that just because HasTak took advantage of others then it becomes fair game for others to take advanage of HasTak too. But I just can't help but feel funny about HasTak's comments.

One can argue that HasTak's vehicle toys often came with differences and were not exact scale replicas of the real deals. But hey many of the fan items are creative and not exact copies of HasTak's existing products too. And do not kid yourself if you reckon HasTak's toys weren't inspired by others' intellectual properties.

- WST Dinobots were mentioned in discussions from time to time. How about Roadbots?

[GoktimusPrime]

Also interesting how Hasbro itself has been infringing on others' intellectual properties. I wonder if Hasbro ever approached Lamborgini for a license for their Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker and Sideswipe?

I thought Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker and Sideswipe's alt modes weren't actual Lamborghinis, but 'generic' looking sports cars that happen to look quite similar to Lamborghinis (but dissimilar enough to avoid a lawsuit). Likewise I heard that Hasbro had to modify the headlights on RiD X-Brawn because they couldn't obtain the rights from Mercedes for the ML320 (whereas Takara did, hence why Wild Ride has fully accurate headlights). Likewise with Alternator Prowl they had to change the Honda logo to an "A" because of some licensing issue.

One can argue that HasTak's vehicle toys often came with differences and were not exact scale replicas of the real deals. But hey many of the fan items are creative and not exact copies of HasTak's existing products too.

Yeah, that's what I meant before when I said that these fan items intentionally design their products so that while they bear striking similarity to Transformers, they're also clearly dissimilar and not the same thing either. I was under the impression that once you modify at least 10% of a source material then it's no longer considered plagiarism. And indeed it is often done with parodies - look at Hardware Wars (with characters like Fluke Starbucker, Ham Salad, Princess Anne-Droid, Darph Nader, Chinchilla the Wookiee Monster, RT-deco, 4Q2 etc.), Thumb Wars (Loke Groundrunner), Spaceballs, MAD Magazine and who doesn't love Weird Al Yankovic's musical spoofs?

I see fan items as being a lot of those things that people can get for computers, game consoles etc - stuff that's compatible, but not manufactured by the computer or console's company. e.g.: a Playstation-compatible controller not manufactured by Sony. They even have these in Japan; they're a cheaper alternative to buying Sony controllers, but of course, they're not endorsed by Sony. Heck, I drive a Mitsubishi but I can get PLENTY of generic-brand parts for my car that aren't manufactured by Mitsubishi. They're not illegal immitations/counterfeits or anything - they're just parts made by other companies but are intentionally made to be compatible with certain makes of cars.

And do not kid yourself if you reckon HasTak's toys weren't inspired by others' intellectual properties.

G2 Gobots/Spychangers were inspired by Mattel's Hot Wheels and are indeed designed to be compatible with their playsets!! Combiners were inspired by Galoob's Connect-a-bles (before Galoob was acquired by Hasbro) -- hell, the entire reason why Hasbro did Transformers was to compete with Tonka's Go-Bots/Machine Men!!

- WST Dinobots were mentioned in discussions from time to time. How about Roadbots?

The Smallest Dinobots are a form of intellectual theft though - but Roadbots aren't. They're perfectly legit and are indeed a form of competition for Transformers in toy aisles. I'm not at all interested in Roadbots, but it's always good to see competition in the market.

[jaydisc]

I was under the impression that once you modify at least 10% of a source material then it's no longer considered plagiarism. And indeed it is often done with parodies - look at Hardware Wars (with characters like Fluke Starbucker, Ham Salad, Princess Anne-Droid, Darph Nader, Chinchilla the Wookiee Monster, RT-deco, 4Q2 etc.), Thumb Wars (Loke Groundrunner), Spaceballs, MAD Magazine and who doesn't love Weird Al Yankovic's musical spoofs?

I don't think there's any hard set percentage or definition. I think the idea is you can't create market confusion so that one company can't profit of the work and IP of another.

I believe spoofs and parodies fall under a different set of rules to that as well. While this is an American example, I think most of the concepts will be similar. The EFF has put together a white paper on suggestions for running a gripe or parody site here. The goal is still to avoid market confusion. I don't think many have bought Weird Al's Fat thinking it was Michael Jackson's Bad. However, I do believe he was taken to court to find out on a few occasions.

Also, unbeknownst to, and unfortunately for, I don't believe Australia has the "Fair Use" provisions which I think you've insinuated, and we've probably all wished for. Most mentions of "Fair Use" that you'll find on the internet typically relate to the American DMCA.

[kup]

Classics Sunstreaker:



Not a perfect replica but close enough.

[TheDirtyDigger]

Classics Sunstreaker:



Not a perfect replica but close enough.

Melbourne Lamborghini is one of my customers and the cars in their showroom look very like Classics Sunstreaker. I keep meaning to ask them if I can pose my Tf with their cars.

[GoktimusPrime]

jaydisc: I think there are laws which dictate how similar a toy can be to something like a real life vehicle before the toy company has to pay a licensing fee. AFAIK HasTak have lawyers which review and approve their products - including things like visual likeness and how much they can get away with in terms of making similar to a certain product before needing to pay licensing. We know they definitely do it with names so I think they also do it with things like vehicles. So things like Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker is probably just within the legal limits of how much Hasbro can imitate a Lamborghini without having to pay for licensing. If you look at the movie toys they actually have vehicle makers' names and logos displayed (e.g. GM, Lockheed & Martin, Corvette etc.) which indicates to me that Hasbro must've sought permission from those companies.

I think Bruticus may have been trying to say that because HasTak fully own "Transformers" they are the only manufacturer for official Transformers, therefore no alternative manufacturer can compete. Eg, I've seen Macross Toys made by Yamato, Bandai, & Toynami. and Macross Model Kits made by Hasegawa and Bandai.
Starwars fans can choose from Hasbro, Kotobukiya, Medicom, Diamond Select, Sideshow, LEGO, EFX Collectables etc, etc.
I've seen Gundam items with Banpresto, Bandai or Kotobukiya on the box. (Dunno if Banpresto and Bandai are the same or not)

Those are more examples of other companies manufacturing toys under licence from the original company. For example, Kabuya manufactures a lot of Transformers candy/gum PVCs and model kits - and it would have been done so under licence from Takara. Likewise Jayjays is a separate company from Hasbro, but they are able to manufacture Transformers clothes under licence from Hasbro. So I'd say that a Macross toy or model manufactured by say Yamato, would've been done so under licence from Big West.

Anyways.....fans dont have a choice, if you want an official Transformer that covert vehicle to robot it must be a HasTak. Alot of times HasTak take advantage of that by giving us Bruticus/Superion giftsets with no Fragging hands or Feet, they give us ROTF figures made entirely of coloured plastic, thats like KinderSurprise Quality and they're only $1 and you get chocolate!! They give us a red car and a yellow car and its Bumblebee and cliffjumper or Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, how many characters have been released using that classics Sunstreaker mold? 4 or 5? They manipulate box photos coz the TF inside aka Ult Bumblebee is Crap worthy but i must admit HasTak do produce some really nice stuff.

Its difficult to feel bad for Hasbro when there are so many examples of refined lumps of petrochemical inserted into a box with a Transformers logo on it. Go Customisers Go. (Please insert Go Speedracer pic)

If you're unhappy with an official TF product, then just don't buy it. I'm not collecting Mighty Muggs because I think they're complete crap. I think most of us here entirely skipped Transformers Animorphs for similar reasons! Just because you're a TF collector doesn't mean you have to buy _everything_ that's an official licensed TF product, unless you're a completist - but again, that's a choice you make. But I don't see my dislike for Mighty Muggs as a justification for buying a KO. Just because HasTak won't officially reissue a certain toy doesn't mean I'll go buy a KO of it. For instance, I need the Trainbots - and I've seen plenty of KO Raidens around (first time I saw one was in 2001). But just because Takara won't reissue Raiden doesn't mean that I'll go get a KO. I'll either save up and buy a legit one, or just not get one!! (yes, I can live without that toy!) - as a collector I would rather not have the toy at all over having a counterfeit.

Ko'ers have no good intention. Customisers have to make a good product or it won't sell, and you know it aint official before you press buy now. Yes there are property infringements. But comparing Ko'ers with Mass Customs is like Apples vs Oranges.

+1

[jaydisc]

jaydisc: I think there are laws which dictate how similar a toy can be to something like a real life vehicle before the toy company has to pay a licensing fee. AFAIK HasTak have lawyers which review and approve their products - including things like visual likeness and how much they can get away with in terms of making similar to a certain product before needing to pay licensing. We know they definitely do it with names so I think they also do it with things like vehicles. So things like Universe/Henkei Sunstreaker is probably just within the legal limits of how much Hasbro can imitate a Lamborghini without having to pay for licensing. If you look at the movie toys they actually have vehicle makers' names and logos displayed (e.g. GM, Lockheed & Martin, Corvette etc.) which indicates to me that Hasbro must've sought permission from those companies.

Absolutely. I completely agree. I'm just saying I don't think there's any measurable definition (like your 10%). It's simply lawyers guessing what they can get away with and judges deciding.

[Hereticpoo]

...as a collector I would rather not have the toy at all over having a counterfeit.

True dat. Gok my man a challenge for you, or anyone who would know.

Has there ever been a non Hasbro or Takara;

Toy (transforming toy, not statue, pvc figure, model kit, chewing gum, tshirt, coffee cup, car sticker, pogostick, role playing mask/gun/cape, keychain, spirograph, or table matt, Toy. )

.....that transforms from alt mode to robot and back.
.....that is an official transformers character from any licenced medium (Film, comic, anime).
with faction symbols, that is a 100% Official TRANSFORMERS registered product, thats been engineered, designed, developed, sold by a licenced third party manufacturer?