The Random Transformers Thoughts Thread

[GoktimusPrime]

RE: Skyfire's post

There are heaps things in G1 that makes no sense - even when watching/reading it as a kid in the 80s, but some of which made less sense as I grew older. I would go nuts if I consciously thought about it all the time, so obviously I just suspend disbelief. But just for lolz, here's a list of some things which, when you think about, makes no sense.

• How does Cybertron have a breathable atmosphere and mild climate? In the absence of plants and oceans, where does its oxygen come from? Being a metal planet, the atmosphere should be a blazing inferno (the entire surface of the planet is like a giant frying pan). Transformers Prime is the first TF cartoon that showed Cybertron having a hostile atmosphere for humans, requiring them to wear spacesuits or be in sealed containers on Cybertron. Also, if oxygen and moisture exists on Cybertron, then rust would be a massive issue. Megatron did say that they were rustproof, but you have individual Transformers who are rust-prone, like Steeljaw.

• Why do most Cybertronians have humanoid robot modes with humanlike faces? Of course, the answer is because Diaclone and Microman etc., but in-universe it makes no sense. Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson has pointed out that most lifeforms on Earth aren't humanoid; thus it makes no sense to assume that alien lifeforms should be humanoid. The real world reason is because it's cheaper to put costumes/makeup on human actors/actresses - but movies like Arrival portray an arguably more realistic vision of what alien life might be like (i.e. very unlike us).

• Why do the Transformers speak English, Japanese or whatever Earth language you're watching it in? The 2007 Transformers movie answered this by explaining that the Cybertronians downloaded Earth's languages from the world wide web, and even had Optimus Prime occasionally speaking in "netspeak" to demonstrate his lack of understanding that some expressions aren't used in real life. The real world reason is "so that the story can happen."

• Why do the Transformers have Earth-mode kibble on their robot bodies prior to arriving on Earth? While Transformers did a better job than Machine Men in showing us alien Cybertronian alt modes, they still kept their Earth-mode kibble. e.g. Bumblebee transforms into a Cybertronian hovercar, but still has VW Beetle parts on his body... plus he even loses a wheel when shot by Decepticons, despite his alt mode having no wheels.

• Some Transformers had Earth-modes on Cybertron! Yeah, they weren't exactly consistent with giving everyone Cybertronian modes. Starscream never transformed into a Tetrajet but an F15 Eagle in Cybertron's distant past; as seen in the flashback scene in "Fire in the Sky." The Triggerbots all also have their Earth modes when they were serving under a young junior officer Optimus Prime in the Underbase Saga flashback. Beast Wars was the first to deliberately show the Transformers not having Earth-mode kibble in robot mode. This was often done by just stripping down the animation models' beast mode parts and then shrouding the 'bots in darkness to hide their lack of detailing; but still, it meant that Optimus Prime did not have gorilla kibble prior to acquiring his beast mode etc.

• Transformers don't breathe... unless they do? In most situations we see the Transformers operating in space or underwater without needing to breathe, which makes sense. They're robots. But then Hound had a face visor when he went underwater and he and Rumble were trying to choke each other? And sometimes we see Transformers coughing.

• How does cloth exist on Cybertron? There are some scenes in the Marvel comics which shows cloth existing on Cybertron, like flags. How is this possible when there is no plant life?

• How do the Transformers measure time? As Cybertron is a rogue planet, it doesn't have a fixed orbit around a star to have consistent periods of day, night and years to use as chronological measures. It may be possible to instead use Cybertron's moons and constellations as reference points, but it does make one wonder what exactly a "stellar cycle" is. I prefer more vague concepts like "Vorns." One neat thing is that in 1984, rogue planets like Cybertron were pure science fiction, but in the past 20 years scientists have confirmed that rogue planets do exist. Some have even suggested that rogue planets may even outnumber fixed orbital planets.

• Why would the Transformers ingest fuel with their mouths? This is an extension of why the Transformers resemble humans. The Marvel comics interestingly portrayed the Transformers as taking in fuel through hatches on their chests, allowing themselves to refuel and talk/socialise at the same time; as seen in Maccadam's Old Oil House.

• Why would the Transformers have physical prisons? As robot lifeforms, it makes as much sense to just remove or download a copy of a Transformers' consciousness for imprisonment; and this has been shown to be a thing sometimes - such as with the Combaticons. Sometimes a Transformers' mind can be voluntarily downloaded because it's easier to transport minds across space than it is to transport physical bodies. An example of this are the 2nd Year Autobot Cars who had their minds stored aboard the Ark, to be later uploaded into new bodies on Earth. Optimus Prime infamously had his mind downloaded onto a floppy disk, which was later uploaded into his new Powermaster body. But in many other times, the Transformers had physical prisons. The Dinobots were imprisoned in a cave, the Stunticons were placed in cells, and Guyhawk was in an off-world Autobot penal colony.

• Why are the Transformers' weapons so ineffective against their own kind? The Sunbow cartoon is the biggest culprit of having non-lethal weapons (ex. TFTM). But this makes no sense; if you're making weapons to wage war against members of your own species, you would logically make weapons that are, ya know, lethal to your own kind. I gotta give credit to Michael Bay in that in the Transformers movies, the Cybertronians actually use weapons that can kill other Cybertronians.

• Why do Cybertronian vehicle modes have windows and human-sized pilot compartments? The Dreamwave comics were on the verge of answering this question before it was axed. The Aligned Continuity was the first to portray Cybertronian modes without windows and pilot compartments.

• Why does no-one care when certain vehicles that don't belong on public roads just drive on by. Mirage, Jazz, Wheeljack and Smokescreen immediately come to mind, transforming into unique cars. But race cars like Mirage, Drag Strip, Barricade etc. aren't even street legal. Then you have military vehicles like Warpath rolling down the road and nobody bats an eyelid? Also, how did the Insecticons remain hidden for so long in the Sunbow cartoon as gigantic robotic insects? In the Marbvel comics the Insecticons mass shifted in bug mode to the size of actual insects; so while still mechanical, at such a small size, most people didn't notice them (similar to the Insecticons in Revenge of the Fallen).

• Scale. We all know the meme.

What have I missed? What things in TFs makes no sense when you stop to think about it?

[Skyfire]

One of the biggest confusing things when I was a kid watching the original series was how the Autobots could fly in the first few episodes then suddenly couldn't.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

One of the biggest confusing things when I was a kid watching the original series was how the Autobots could fly in the first few episodes then suddenly couldn't.

And then randomly occasionally the Dinobots could!

[JJJ]

Well, I watched the preview (I refuse to use the USianism "trailer" - these things haven't been tacked onto the end of a film or VHS tape for most of my lifetime now...) for Transformers One.

I really rather liked what I saw. Energetic, humourous, no bizarrely bitty / insectoid faces...

As this point my only negative response (beyond disliking the American-ness of everything, but what are you going to do when it is made by and for Americans?) is that it seems a shame its only a film, not a series. And, well, TMNT Mutant Mayhem started as only a film, but then got approved for a series.



Anyway, my thoughts here are less about how I liked what I saw, and more about how droves and droves of self-declared fans seem determined to hate almost everything about it. I just don't get it, to be honest.

I mean, sure, I greatly dislike Bay films now, but in 2007 I loved what I saw on screen (subject to a few dislikes that have since grown to overshadow all enjoyment I might otherwise have derived from it). I was open to whatever was coming, because I'd not experienced new TF stuff for something over 15 years at that point (the cartoon never got repeated out here, the comics ended in the early 90s, and we never got BW or RID or Armada out here either). Plus it was a whole movie of TFs, and CG, not cartoon. Let's give it a shot, I figured.

Today... Well, I like to think that my approach to things hasn't changed (I was quite open to the Skybound comic, reservations about the overall plan for a shared universe thing and a writer/artist obsessed with wrestling notwithstanding, and despite those things I'm enjoying it), but I'm staggered by the number of people who claim to love TF as a general thing and yet shit all over every new individual thing we get.

I spent some time yesterday reading the now 120-something page thread on TFW about TF One (possibly a mistake, I know...), and came away with this...

-someone who seems to think that all TF storytelling must forever be beholden to the barely-thought-through concepts literally tossed together as needed back in the 80s, and that if a new story does not toe the line then it must perforce be rubbish. And then there was the other person who similarly could not wrap their head around an Optimus Prime who isn't some sort of father-figure to Bumblebee.

-people who have entirely fixed ideas of what Megatron sounds like, as if Megatron was a real person ("ooh, that doesn't sound enough like Christopher Walken, your impression sucks"), and also as if Megatron, by dint of being the evil leader, ought to sound a very specific way (because, y'know, all villains are immediately marked out by their voices); and as the actor playing the part doesn't sound like whatever's in their head, the whole thing sucks (and so does the actor; but there I think it has a lot to do with the actor's skin tone...).

-piles of people who genuniely seem to have expected (not merely desired, but really expected) some adult-oriented grim-dark war-porn, and are therefore crushed that Hasbro has made another kid-oriented adventure story with liberal dashes of the kind of humour current children are accustomed to. It seems a mystery to them why Hasbro might have made this choice in order to sell ... children's toys.


And those are just the things that stuck in my mind the day after reading (not going back to look for more ). Sure, there were plenty of people who liked it, or were willing to see just how it turned out, but overall I am left shaking my head.

[Dangermot]

So you're shaking your head because you can't understand why people don't like the same trailer that you did? And why people want Megatron to sound a certain way? I see that sort of attitude all the time on TFW2005 and it causes lots of arguments.
Me personally I would have preferred a darker, more serious tone that was aimed at older audiences. I'm not a fan of Prime's voice or Megatron's voice either (and it has absolutely nothing to do with skin colour. What a silly argument. Some people always got to play the race card....) As it is I thought the trailer was too jokey and too juvenile. It looks like I am not in target audience so I'll be giving it a miss.

[DELTAprime]

I found the Pixar/Illumination style of the lines and actions in the trailer a little strange to see in Transformers. I can certainly scratch my head at it, as it's not what I expected. However, unless something is objectively bad, I see nothing productive in tearing it down.

Not everything is for everyone. If we found a bunch of hardcore Marvel or DC fans, they would say there are various comics, TV shows and movies they hate. TFOne is probably just not for them, but there's no reason for them to get out pitchforks. At the same time, no reason to be surprised that some people are not going to like it.

[GoktimusPrime]

As this point my only negative response (beyond disliking the American-ness of everything, but what are you going to do when it is made by and for Americans?) is that it seems a shame its only a film, not a series.

I just found out that a friend of mine from uni worked on some of the animation in this film. So it would seem that at least part of the animation was outsourced to Australians.

Anyway, my thoughts here are less about how I liked what I saw, and more about how droves and droves of self-declared fans seem determined to hate almost everything about it. I just don't get it, to be honest.

Firstly, let me just say that people can like or dislike whatever they want. That's fine. But I don't know why some people need to always publicly declare their dislike for things. Fans constantly whinging about stuff is why Star Wars Rise of Skywalker was the way it was; the movie that tried to avoid being hated by everyone and ended up being loved by noone. At the end of the day, you can't make something that's going to make everyone happy; so just make something good and most people will enjoy it.

I mean, sure, I greatly dislike Bay films now, but in 2007 I loved what I saw on screen (subject to a few dislikes that have since grown to overshadow all enjoyment I might otherwise have derived from it). I was open to whatever was coming, because I'd not experienced new TF stuff for something over 15 years at that point (the cartoon never got repeated out here, the comics ended in the early 90s, and we never got BW or RID or Armada out here either). Plus it was a whole movie of TFs, and CG, not cartoon. Let's give it a shot, I figured.

I still like the 2007 movie. No, it was never a literary masterpiece, but it's an enjoyable enough popcorn action movie. And yeah, you could say the same about all the other Bayformers movies too - the issue is that they're all copy-and-paste of the 2007 plot; which was made glaringly obvious by Doug Walker's (Nostalgia Critic) Non-Review of Transformers Age of Extinction; a video that he made before that movie came out, and was able to predict the basic plot with 80% accuracy. That's just how ridiculously formulaic and predictable the Bayformers movies were. The Bumblebee movie has the best story in any TF movie, but you don't see Travis Knight making four more sequels to it that just recycle the plot over and over again. No matter how good a story is, simply repeating it gets tiresome. Heck, Star Wars A New Hope has an enjoyable story, but The Force Awakens pretty much recycles the plot (yeah, I know ANH recycles the plot of Kurosawa Akira's The Hidden Fortress, but at least it was a remake as a space opera - it's not the same as reusing the same plot in the same universe!).

What I find somewhat funny about people who outright hate on Bayformers altogether is how many of them only became interested in Transformers since or after 2007! Michael Bay has ruined Transformers for them but also elicited them to become TF fans... right.

-someone who seems to think that all TF storytelling must forever be beholden to the barely-thought-through concepts literally tossed together as needed back in the 80s, and that if a new story does not toe the line then it must perforce be rubbish. And then there was the other person who similarly could not wrap their head around an Optimus Prime who isn't some sort of father-figure to Bumblebee.

I find it remarkable how so many people who insist on everything being beholden to Generation 1, are often incredibly ignorant about Generation 1. That TF One trailer has more G1 Easter Eggs than I can poke an Energon rod at. Chris McFeely recently made a video breaking down the trailer (there's also loads of references to the Aligned Continuity, which young fans today would be more familiar with).

-people who have entirely fixed ideas of what Megatron sounds like, as if Megatron was a real person ("ooh, that doesn't sound enough like Christopher Walken, your impression sucks"), and also as if Megatron, by dint of being the evil leader, ought to sound a very specific way (because, y'know, all villains are immediately marked out by their voices); and as the actor playing the part doesn't sound like whatever's in their head, the whole thing sucks

Here's the thing... we've never heard a young pre-Megatron voice before. There's no precedent. In all other screen media, Megatron was always just Megatron. But this also means that he's had no growth as a character, because as an antagonist, writers don't want audiences to empathise with the villain. This was absolutely the case in Generation 1. In the Sunbow cartoon, Megatron was created by the Constructicons as part of the new breed of fighting transforming and flying robots; he was always a warrior. In the Marvel Comics, both Optimus Prime and Megatron were gladiators, but went on separate paths when the war broke out.

The idea of Optimus Prime and Megatron being friends before the war is something that's become the standard background story for their pair in the 21st Century. This is something that emerged from the 2007 movie, when Optimus Prime looked upon Megatron's body and said, "We were brothers once," and it's been in stories like Transformers Prime and the IDW comics that have expanded on the idea of Optimus Prime and Megatron being old buddies.

In G1 (Marvel), Optimus Prime and Megatron were rivals and temporary allies in their youth, but they were never friends. So I get that the idea of them being buddies is unfamiliar to those of us who grew up with Generation 1. But this isn't the case for anyone under the age of forty who didn't grow up with Generation 1. For a lot of fans now who've only know Transformers in the 21st Century, they would be more familiar with the idea of Optimus Prime and Megatron being old friends. And the Transformers brand is now in its 23rd year of existence in the 21st Century, whereas it only existed for 16 years in the 20th Century -- Transformers has existed longer in the 21st Century than it did in the 20th Century, and obviously this disparity is only going to grow, as the number of people who have become TF fans after 2001 will come to outnumber those of us who became TF fans before 2000 (if they don't already outnumber us now).

On another note; I've noticed people saying that Chris Hemsworth doesn't sound like Peter Cullen (duh). But he sounds more like Optimus Prime than G1 Orion Pax ever did! G1 Orion Pax was voiced by the younger-sounding Laurie Faso? <Google check> Yes, Laurie Faso. Whose youthful sounding voice also landed him roles like Raphael in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: Secret of the Ooze etc. In "War Dawn," Orion Pax not only sounded young, but importantly, he sounded nothing like Optimus Prime. And this was deliberate, because the Aerialbots (and audience) needed to not yet realise that he was the robot who would be Optimus Prime. Having Orion Pax being voiced by Peter Cullen doing his Optimus Prime voice would've given that revelation away! The whole reveal was towards the end of the episode where, after being rebuilt by Alpha Trion, you see his silhouette in shadow and smoke, and when Megatron says, "Who are you?" we finally hear Optimus Prime's voice say, "You're worst nightmare!" I remember the first time I saw this episode as a kid, my jaw dropped and I was really pumped!
So the funny thing about some of these people saying that Orion Pax doesn't sound like Optimus Prime and D-16 not sounding like Megatron? That's the point!
It's the reason why Hayden Christensen wasn't dubbed by James Earl Jones as Anakin Skywalker.

Imagine you're a kid and this is your first Transformers experience. The moment D-16 is revealed as Megatron should come as a surprise. It's not going to be much of a surprise if D-16 already sounds and behaves like Megatron. And before someone says that he already looks too much like Megatron to be a surprise, I will remind you that as a kid, it was not until late December 1986 when, when TFTM came out, that I discovered that Galvatron was Megatron and Rodimus Prime was Hot Rod. Yep. Despite playing with these toys for nearly a year, reading books about them etc., it never dawned on me at the time that these characters were the same! Okay, maybe some of you were clever enough to work it out, and I'm sure that there would be some kids who'd work out D-16's identity too... but there would be lots of kids who'd be as stu---, oblivious as I was, who would not make the connection.

(and so does the actor; but there I think it has a lot to do with the actor's skin tone...).

Oh, I saw someone post a comment on social media saying, "Getting a black guy to voice Megatron is a very dumb (donkey) move."
If people just don't like his D-16 voice, okay, fine. But making comments like that is just vile. >

-piles of people who genuniely seem to have expected (not merely desired, but really expected) some adult-oriented grim-dark war-porn, and are therefore crushed that Hasbro has made another kid-oriented adventure story with liberal dashes of the kind of humour current children are accustomed to. It seems a mystery to them why Hasbro might have made this choice in order to sell ... children's toys.

I'm going to bet that many of these same people did not watch Beast Machines Transformers and actively collected Beast Machines toys when they were in stores. Because if you want a Transformers screen story and toy line that is dark and gritty with deep and meaningful philosophical undertones, then Beast Machines should be your jam. And yet the toys horribly shelfwarmed to the point where we missed out on the entire Battle of the Spark line (which had some of the best BM toys) because Australian retail buyers didn't want to order more stock when they were still sitting on dead stock from Wave 1. We also missed out on RiD Air Attack Optimus Primal and Megatron Megabolt... these were all toys I had to either import (which was super unfun given the super weak AUD in 2000; remember when it was trading at 45US cents?) or get second hand from other collectors. You know how weird it was having to hunt down a crappy toy like Beast Machines Silverbolt? Guh. And Beast Machines effectively dead-ended the G1 continuity family, with Transformers being strings of reboots ever since.

I feel like whenever Transformers does anything new; people just want to hate it on. To be fair, sometimes the hate is justified, but there are some who just hate new things simply because it's different.
* 1986: Rodimus Prime sucks. Transformers is ruined forever.
* 1987: Headmasters and Targetmasters are stupid. I'm out of this fandom.
* 1988: Pretenders are lame. I quit and so should you.
* 1989: Micromasters are for babies. I'm over Transformers.
* 1990: Action Masters go against what being a Transformer is. Go away. (TBH, I agree )
* 1991: Motorvators? Are these Ring Wraiths? Transformers is dead to me.
* 1992: Why are these colours hurting my eyes, and why can't the Constructicons combine? Lame.
* 1993: "Did you notice how Transformers Generation 2 is the same as Generation 1?" (this is literally what a classmate said to me at school)
* 1994: Are the Transformers trying to be Jedi now? Ruined forever.
* 1995: Go-Bots? More like No-Bots. These will never be popular.
* 1996: "They made a monkey out of Optimus Prime!"
* 1997: TRUKK NOT MUNKEE!
* 1998: Beast Wars has ruined Transformers forever.
* 1999: I gave up on Transformers after they became animals.
* 2000: Too dark and gritty, Transformers is meant to be fun! Ruined forever.
* 2001: Licensed vehicles? Somehow lame to me.
* 2002: Where are the new toys?
* 2003: Gimmicks are for kids. Transformers is trash.
* 2004: This Masterpiece Transformer is way too complex. This is never gonna take off.
* 2005: Minimimally intrusive gimmicks are still for kids. Not like the G1 Transformers that we liked as kids. Rubbish.
* 2006: G1 Transformers with current day engineering? This is never going to be popular.
* 2007: Michael Bay killed my childhood.
* 2008: The Transformers are all fun and goofy. Nobody will ever like this.
* 2009: Michael Bay destroyed my childhood.
* 2010: Transformers entirely on Cybertron before the war? This is stupid and I want no part of it.
* 2011: Michael Bay ruined my childhood.
* 2012: This new Transformers continuity is aligning... I hate it.
* 2013: Titan Class? That's too expensive and nobody will ever want it. Even discounted at $80 at Target.
* 2014: Michael Bay has ruined Transformers and Shakespeare. I quit.
* 2015: Why are there so many Combiners? Ruined.
* 2016: Headmasters are stupid. I'm out of this fandom faster than you can say déjà vu.
* 2017: Michael Bay has ruined Transformers and Camelot. I am no longer a fan of this franchise.
* 2018: Travis Knight has ruined Bayformers. Bring back the Bayhem.
* 2019: Seige is as laem as it is hrad to sepll. I haet it.
* 2020: These Prime Masters are just Headmasters, which are stupid! I. Am. Out.
* 2021: TRUKK NOT MUNKEE! Ruined foreva!
* 2022: I told you, classic characters with current day engineer is never going to work. I am leaving this brand.
* 2023: TRUKK NOT MUNKEE, now on the big screen! Theatrically ruined forever.
* 2024: An animated movie based on a children's toy brand being fun for kids? THE AUDACITY! I quit this fandom.
Then why are you still here?!?

I've quit fandoms before. Transformers is now the only franchise that I'm a fanatic of. There are other things that I have sporadic and superficial interest in, but I'm not fanatic about those things. I used to be a fan of Dragon Ball (hence the "Gok" in "Goktimus Prime"), but I quit in 1996, and I've never gotten back into it. But I don't go and join Dragon Ball fan groups and hate on all the new content. Heck, I never even made any public comments about Dragonball Evolution - because quite frankly, as I was no longer a fan of Dragon Ball, I no longer had a dog in the race.

Now of course, Transformers is a multi-series franchise now (something that has only happened in the 21th Century). I get that some people might be still into the fandom for Generations or Masterpiece etc. - most fans aren't into everything in Transformers (unless you're griffin ). But I don't see why these people don't just focus on what they do like instead of ragging on things that they don't. I'm honestly not a huge fan of the EarthsPark cartoon series, and so I just don't comment about it much. Even my EarthSpark collection is quite small, with many of the toys I have having been given to me by Hasbro, or I bought because I wanted to build the Mandroid Build-A-Figure. Yeah, sure, I've made individual toy review posts about some of these figures - but even then, I review them as I would any other toy. You'll notice that in my Nightshade review I make zero mention of this toy's character from the show or the whole gender neutral thing. It's a toy review, so I only focus on the figure (not saying that I like or dislike the character; I just have little interest in the show period).

I don't want to say that people shouldn't criticise things; but there's a difference between being critical and just outright hating things because they're contrary to your tastes or because it's different from what you're familiar with. If Transformers never did anything different, then we'd still be stuck in 1985. And quite frankly, Transformers would've died off along with the Machine Men, if not sooner. The reason why the Transformers is in its fortieth consecutive year and didn't die off like so many other 80s toy brands is because it has constantly reinvented itself. Yeah, some inventions were better than others, but the point is that Transformers has always adapted. And in the 21rd Century where Transformers is a multi-line brand, we can choose which lines to focus on. The G2 years were lowest point of the brand, and if you didn't like G2 then there was really nothing else that you could collect. Heck, as awesome as Beast Wars was, during the BW years if you didn't like BW, except for the limited Machine Wars, there was nothing else that you could collect. Don't like Transformers One? Then don't watch or collect it. You still have Generations Legacy, Generations Studio Series, Masterpiece and now Missing Link etc. etc. We are so spoiled for choice now as collectors, and yet people still want to complain. Think back to 1995!

Thank you for attending my TEDtalk.