The Pros & Cons of Michael Bay - discussion topic

[griffin]

Given that consistency and coherence have been largely irrelevant to the franchise so far, it's hard to see why a reboot would be neccessary.

If Bay does is not a Director or Story Editor for the new Universe (to dictate the overall story arc), and the power goes back to Hasbro like it was for the 2007 movie (before they bribed Bay with overriding power to get him back for 2, 3 and 4), then I think a reboot would be very useful.
We could have Autobots and Optimus Prime being the Heroes that we can look up to and trust... something that Michael Bay sabotaged just to get a short good action shot or a Trailer scene, at the expense of the overall plot and consistent or believable characterisation.

I still enjoy watching the movies and often watch them when they are on TV, so I'm not one who finds things to complain about them or him, but I'd enjoy them a lot more if I could ignore the plot errors, embrace the characters and love to be inspired by the pure hero that "Optimus" has always been in the past. After all, if you can't trust your heroes, who is left to inspire you.

[GoktimusPrime]

I agree with Yongeltron. A reboot would be a cop out IMO. And as he said, it wouldn't really matter if a few things became inconsistent anyway.

[Yongeltron]

What I'd actually like to see is for it to be scaled-down a bit. Focus on the core premise from the first movie of these strange mechanical alien beings existing among us as everyday vehicles, hiding in plain sight, robots... in disguise...if you will. Focus on a small cast of autobots (three or four) that we can actually get to know and a couple of humans who we don't hate.

Decepticons are menacing hunters that are lurking nearby, killing with purpose and stealth. Rather than huge big pitched battles alongside the US military, have the bots face off in more personal battles. A decepticon attacks, so the guardians are scrambling to protect their fleshy friends. Show off their individual capabilities and personalities in desperate, scrappy personal fights with their malevolent counterparts. Let us get to know the villains a bit too, so there's actually some motivation to their conflict.

If we are focused on characters that we actually get to know, then we're more invested in their conflict, so the action is more engaging without having to resort to grand-scale battles. Make more of the fact that these are aliens with an existence quite unlike our own, yet still like us in important ways.

Give us characters we can connect with, transformations where we can understand what we're looking at and a story that actually says something. That's not too much to ask for, is it?

Also, no more swirly KSI parts-forming. That was ridiculous.

[Bladestorm]

I think one of the things that annoys me is that movie Optimus has lost his weakness... compassion and self sacrifice. In the first movie you love Optimus because he still has that... he's the reluctant hero who will do anything to bring peace to his people and Earth and it reverberates our childhood memories of the cartoon. As the movies go on he becomes colder, his personality is drained from him and he barely has any emotion. He becomes nothing but a war machine and we don't see the "humanity" of the being underneath that flashy red and blue flame job nor do we see the true leader he actually should be. They gave him some great moments in AoE but the story and execution meant you never got to connect with him and some of his reactions were downright odd for his personality/character... if they actually put as much thought into a character like him as they did that darn Romeo and Juliet clause I think the movies would have more substance.

Not only are Transformers robots in disguise (which I think has been lost to luxury car advertising) but they are individuals with very human traits and emotions that could pique a viewers engagement and endearment if it was actually explored a bit.

The movies brought a massive focus to Bumblebee and the no voice in the first movie was cute and yet again offered a tether for viewers to sympathise and explore with him. But he's had absolutely no growth or progress since that first movie. He's still a voiceless scout. He hasn't grown or evolved or even really interacted with the other bots to convey the friendships or relationships. He hasn't tried to get his voice back properly so that he can better himself. AoE could have explored his challenges and frustrations the ragtag group he was "leading" but there was NOTHING there to provide a connection with the audience.

I know there isn't time to develop all the characters fully on screen, but key characters should get more story over the ancillary humans. Personally I think the first set of Transformers movies should have been about the rise and eventual sacrifice of Optimus. Let him be the great leader and (as much as I adore him) eventually have him make the ultimate sacrifice to save the universe from something like Unicron and allow the next "leader" to emerge. Keep him in flashbacks or as the voice of the matrix, or even do a G1 and eventually bring him back because civilisation as we know it collapses in the meantime but give him and the other bots of significance a defined storyline arc that allows us a viewers to engage, to feel for our bots and leave us wanting to see more.

[Sinnertwin]

They are a technologically advanced race... I'm sure there were humane methods at their disposal to put prisoners into stasis-lock or hybernation, and store their sparks until such time that they could be re-educated or re-programmed to be non-violent.

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

And what about Optimus enslaving the Dinobots in TF4? He only "frees" them from Lockdown's captivity when he needed them, not as soon as he was free... and then instead of pleading with his "fellow knights" for their help, he starts bashing up Grimlock and holding a sword to his throat stating, "help my friends or die".

I may be wrong, but weren't the Dinobots on the ship they needed to travel across the world? Freeing them onboard may not have been the best course of action if they were

Prime does ask for their help first though "so, today you stand with us, or you stand against me."
Grimlock decided to stand against Prime and once Jungle Law was applied and Optimus Prime proved that he was the Alpha Male, Grimlock and the other Dinobots fell in line. Happens in nature every day of the week

But there's the inconsistency. It's not as if Optimus Prime had been a merciless take-no-prisoners bad-bot the whole time. The first movie showed him as being more merciful, especially in the way that he was willing to sacrifice himself over Megatron. But then in ROTF he suddenly changed to become a more cold-blooded character for no apparent reason whatsoever. It'd be different if he'd been like this from the first film, but he wasn't.

That's what we want though, isn't it? we want to see Prime develop as a character. we want to see how he feels and reacts. He's witnessed his family get torn apart, blown up, melted, betrayed by humans and we still expect him to do cartwheels?
If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

rule #1 you must die and come back to life
rule #2 you must sacrifice yourself at any given opportunity
yawn.

[Demonac]

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

Didn't they fix Bumblebee's voice at the end of the first movie?
Or did audiences think him being a robot Lassie was too cute, so it was retconned?

[Yongeltron]

If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

rule #1 you must die and come back to life
rule #2 you must sacrifice yourself at any given opportunity
yawn. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Agreed. I can understand nostalgia, but what's the point of telling exactly the same story with exactly the same characters again and again for decades on end? Are the Autobots, Decepticons and their endless war really the towering literary and conceptual achievements that would justify such treatment? Even Luke and his pals only blew up the Death Star twice.

[UltraMarginal]

Just take whatever is working, make another movie and call it "TF5: Age of Galvatron".

I think it's time for a movie title with Rise in it, maybe Rise of Galvatron

Also, no more swirly KSI parts-forming. That was ridiculous.

Amen Brother!

I've enjoyed the movie we have got for what they are, sure there are issues with all of them but there are issues with every movie that's ever been released. I also don't see them as a part of G1 continuity or any other, they are their own haphazard continuity with their own albeit shallow characters.

I don't think the transformers universe is big enough for a MCU style tied together string of movies. we have 30 years of several different toy/show lines that revolve around pretty much the same topic with variations. the Marvel started in 1939 as Timely Publications with Marvel as it's modern self dating back as far as 1961, nearly 60 years of stories ranging between everything from a guy in a flying metal suit, a dude made from rock and a talking raccoon. They have the depth to produce 10 movies that are nothing like each other. Transformers is always going to have giant robots.

For the moment Transformers movies are enjoyable popcorn flicks and they will probably stay that way while they're making as much money as they have been. I would hate to see them start to take themselves too seriously and actually lose profit and stop being made as a result. as soon as the brand starts to look unprofitable, we'll start getting less of the good stuff that we do get.

Maybe in ten or fifteen years we'll see it rebooted in a manner similar to batman. With G1 story and designs that work on the big screen, deep characterisation and less fart jokes.

When I was younger, I always felt that Pixar could do a good job of a Transformers movie.

[UltraMarginal]

I pretty much agree with everything Sinnertwin wrote while I was writing my post.

[griffin]

I kinda hate to respond to this as it makes me look like a Bay-hater, but the plot and character contradictions is the one element I have a problem with in his four TFs movies.
I like to watch the movies, but know that I would have loved them more if the contradictions and inconsistencies weren't there.

Considering that they couldn't even fix Bumblebee's voice box & their limited resources spark storage doesn't seem like a viable option to me.

But they did fix his voicebox... but Bay preferred the mute bot element of talking through his radio. So it was just one of the many retcons or contradictions in his four movies.

I may be wrong, but weren't the Dinobots on the ship they needed to travel across the world? Freeing them onboard may not have been the best course of action if they were

That's the main problem I was trying to point out with Bay's interpretation of the Dinobots.
Just because they had beast modes it doesn't mean that they have the minds of animals. And just because Michael Bay wanted an extra fight scene at the end of the movie and for the Trailers (instead of a quick liberation of the Dinobots who then volunteer to charge into battle with their fellow Autobots), it doesn't mean that their sentience has to be sacrificed to do that. (I know that the Movie and promos & Trailers needed a physical fight with Grimlock as he was face of this fourth movie, and since they only show up right at the end of the movie it prevented someone else like Galvatron being able to have time to do it... but this forced scene in the movie goes against what Optimus and the Dinobots should have been like.)
Optimus even referred to them as his fellow knights, which means they were his equals, so now if they appear in a later Movie as proper sentient Autobots, it will contradict their appearance in the fourth movie.
They should have been portrayed like the G1 comic Dinobots (regular Autobots) based on who Optimus said they were, not the G1 cartoon Dinobots (peanut brained animals who were built and provided comedic relief to the episodes they were in). They didn't even get any lines to at least give us an idea that they were anything more than pets.
It was just another of Bay's lazy 2-dimensional stereotypes... like his racial stereotypes of many of his other characters (like Skids, Mudflap, Shane, Leo, most of the Asians in TF4, Figueroa, Drift, etc, etc, etc).

Prime does ask for their help first though "so, today you stand with us, or you stand against me."
Grimlock decided to stand against Prime and once Jungle Law was applied and Optimus Prime proved that he was the Alpha Male, Grimlock and the other Dinobots fell in line. Happens in nature every day of the week

That would only make sense if they were just pets or animals like the Steeljaws on Lockdowns ship. These were supposed to be Autobot Knights who were equal to Optimus Prime... and yet it was deemed more important for Bay's action movie to have Optimus fight and enslav his equals to do his bidding, just to get an extra scene of fighting and explosions crammed into the movie. Why couldn't it have just been a charge of the heroes with the Dinobots being willing comrades to their fellow Autobots... and how does the ground explode when Grimlock's weapon hits it?
It's like Bay tries to find a way to include explosions in every scene, even if it means re-writing the plot or characters to achieve it.

If i see one more Prime sacrifice himself or die only to come back i'm going to headbutt something -it's cliche, it's tired, it's old. it loses it's edge when you've seen the same thing for the last 30 freaking years.

Cliched is when you have all these blockbuster action movies being required to have the same plot concepts just to appease the investors and pre-release movie reviewers...
- Someone important that isn't evil must die or be believed to be dead (the tragic element).
- The hero(es) must become targets or hunted as if they are the villains (to get sympathy from the audience to hope they regain their hero status).
- The main hero must do something that creates doubt or mistrust by others and the main villain needs to show themselves as justified in their actions (to have shades of grey to every character, so that there isn't any black or white heroes and villains).
- There must be a romance, but is difficult for the guy to get the girl.
- Something needs to be found.
- The villains should be defeated, but not entirely if there is potential for a sequel.

It would be less cliched if modern action movies could actually avoid conforming to those requirements just to appease the reviewers and critics that could make or break them.


That's probably the most fun I've had dissecting the Transformers movies...