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Thread: 日本語会話: The Japanese Conversation Thread

  1. #181
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    RE: This discussion about original vs loanwords in English

    Japanese is also quite similar in this regard, with many native Japanese words continuing to co-exist with foreign loanwords, especially from Chinese. This is one thing that learners of Japanese can find perplexing is how there are synonyms, which are also represented by the various readings of the same Kanji. But this isn't too different from how English is also has different words meaning the same thing, often from different origins, as discussed in more detail in the link above. But for this thread I'd like to focus on Japanese.

    Just as loanwords in English often evoke a greater air of sophistication, Chinese loanwords similarly tend to evoke more sophistication compared to native Japanese words. Not surprisingly this is because Japanese writing originated from Chinese writing, and initially the Japanese only wrote in Chinese but later developed their own forms of script to better suit their language (as Japanese isn't even in the same language family as Chinese, just as English isn't in the same family as Latin-descendant Romance languages).

    Some examples. Native Japanese words are in Hiragana while Chinese loanwords are in Katakana.

    YEAR: とし ネン - e.g. ことし = "this year", キネンビ = "anniversary"
    COW: うし ギュウ - e.g. うしどし = "Year of the Cow, ワギュウ = "Japanese beef"
    LOOK: みる ハイケン - latter is more formal, similar to how "look" is English but "spectate" is Latin
    MEDICINE: くすり ヤク - e.g. ヤッキョク = "pharmacy"
    FOOD: たべもの ショクジ - the former means 'food,' whereas the latter is often translated as 'meal.' When I run both words through Google Images たべもの gives me this whereas ショクジ gives me this
    WELCOME: いらっしゃい(ませ) カンゲイ - again, when running both words through Google Images, the former gave me this while the latter gave me this. Welcome vs reception, same meaning, but different moods!
    ...and so on and so on...

    Also, I've made a video where I'm narrating a Chinese fairy tale in Japanese here. The video contains my narration with Japanese subtitles and an English translation in the description, although the thread itself shows individual images with English translations beneath each one.

  2. #182
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    Having a chat w/ our Japanese ALT in the staffroom, she showed me a photo of her cousin's son as 従兄弟の息子 ("My cousin's son"). I then said, 「従兄弟の子供は甥じゃないか?」("Wouldn't your cousin's son by your nephew?"), and she said no, it's not... but she didn't know what the correct kinship term for it is either.

    I don't know for sure, but I think that it'd be 従甥(じゅうせい) for a boy and 従姪(じゅうてつ) for a girl. It then reminded me that I don't use the proper kinship terms either, because in English your cousin's child is your 'cousin once removed.' But I've always called them 'nephew' or 'niece' as that's my own family's tradition.

  3. #183
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    There's an app called Duolingo that teaches you a foreign language, but it's limited to Roman and Greek alphabet languages. Anyone know of an app to learn the basics of Japanese?

    Edit: never mind, apparently they have just added Japanese. I now know 1 = ichi and 2 = ni.

  4. #184
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    This site has some good tips on learning Japanese, as well as links to some useful apps and resources. Also useful for anyone wanting to master native pronunciation, particularly the pitch accent. This guy has some useful videos on that which explains it in meticulous detail.
    https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/japa...g-stack-dogen/

  5. #185
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    Thanks for sharing. I always wanted to learn Japanese, but couldn't find enough books in romaji or anyone patient enough to teach me.

    I know it's the convention to learn to write and speak basic words and phrases when starting out. However, when learning languages, I seem to find it easier to learn to listen and speak first (common everyday phrases first), then start learning the alphabets and characters later. But that's just me. Maybe I learn differently compared to others. Although I think it makes sense because when I was a baby first learning to communicate, I listened and spoke first, then only started to learn to read and write when I was in pre-school... Foood for thought.

  6. #186
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    Speaking and listening are natural language skills which the brain is has evolved to use. As you've accurately pointed out, all babies/infants begin with speaking and listening and often don't learn to read or write until they start school. Reading and writing are artificial language skills, which is why they must be taught (either by a teacher or self-instructed) and cannot simply be naturally picked up like speaking and listening can.

    I strongly advise against using Romaji if you actually want to learn Japanese. It may seem easy at first, but it causes other problems, including:
    • Greater risk of phonemic interference. This is always a tell-tale sign as to which of my students have bothered to learn Hiragana and which ones haven't. Those who are still relying on Romaji are far more likely to transfer English phonemes over to Japanese. e.g. mispronouncing まえ (mae) as "may" instead of "mah-eh" -- students are misreading the "ae" as in "maelstrom." The fact is that the Japanese /ae/ vowel set does not exist in English phonology, and also, Japanese generally doesn't slur vowels as English does. Learning via Hiragana helps you to better master basic pronunciation better than Romaji does.

    • It is often difficult to wean off dependency on Romanisation and become competent in reading/writing Japanese script. I once met a guy who'd been living in Japan for over a decade but was utterly illiterate in Japanese because he'd learnt using Romaji and couldn't wean himself off it. He could speak the language fluently, but was useless at reading/writing - so even for simple things like reading signs, menus etc. -- forget it.

    Imagine if a Japanese person tried learning English using purely Katakana-ised イングリッシュ (Ingurisshu).

  7. #187
    FatalityPitt Guest

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    I think when learning a language, it definitely helps to be surrounded by native speakers of that language (if the goal is to learn to listen and speak). I've lived in Malaysia and Australia; and I can speak English, Malay and Mandarin (actually, my Mandarin sucks, but I understand enough to know when I'm being laughed at. Lol). I was able to pick up basic English and Malay easily enough without formal lessons, because I was surrounded by people who spoke those languages. Not an hour went by without me over-hearing conversations in Malay, English or some other Chinese dialect. The nice thing about Malay and English is that they both use Roman letters, so I could easily look up new words I might hear or read, and find their meaning. With Mandarin, it's trickier because it's written and read in Chinese characters - which I found intimidating to look at when I was a kid. I needed to ask people what certain words meant when I heard them for the first time.

    Yeah, if I decide to learn Japanese properly, it'd be good to learn Hiragana too. That way I'll be able to read texts, and reading helps build vocabulary. It's a shame they don't play more Japanese films on SBS. It always helps to be able to listen to and pick up common speech patterns and nuances. If you hear the word "hajimette" often enough, you soon realise that it means 'new' or 'first time' (or something along those lines).

  8. #188
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    I recommend watching Japanese films/shows on DVD rather than on TV for the purposes of language learning. One thing that I recommend to my students is to alternate between watching the same episode with the subtitles on and off, preferably starting without subtitles on the first viewing. Because if you only ever watch shows with subtitles on, while your brain may pick up a few words or detect some patterns here and there, on the whole, your brain's actually NOT doing much work at all. But yeah, I recommend watching it in raw Japanese first, then watching it with subtitles on, then watch it again raw.

  9. #189
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    Another interesting case of convergent evolution in language - how four has been rendered in Kanji and Roman numerals.

    KANJI: 一 二 三 五 六 七 八 九 十
    ROMAN: I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X

    When first learning these numbers, the first thing that jumps to mind is why four bucks the trend. Why isn't "Quattuor" written as four vertical lines, and why isn't "yon" written as four horizontal lines?

    Well, as it turns out, they used to be written as four lines!
    Thus...
    一二三亖
    I II III IIII
    But it's believed that 三/亖 and III/IIII became tricky to discern when written in small writing and/or when read at a distance. Thus bucking the trend and changing the characters just alleviated initial confusion between three and four.

    Now the Roman numeral for Quattuor makes sense, it's 1 before 5: IV. And the trend continues with other numbers like 9 being 1 before 8 (IX) etc. But what about Kanji? As it turns out, the character 四 didn't originally mean "four." It originally meant "breath" and evolved from an image of a mouth (口) with teeth and tongue inside.

    目目...目目
    .......
    ............. Kanji: the ancient world's answer to Emoji

    "So how did "breath" come to mean "four"?!"
    Homophones. Apparently in Old or Middle Chinese and Japanese, the word for breath was pronounced in the exact same way as the word for four. Thus people just started writing "breath" as a written synonym for four, and it eventually replaced the word entirely, and a new Kanji had to be devised for "breath" (息).

    #themoreyouknow

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Another interesting case of convergent evolution in language - how four has been rendered in Kanji and Roman numerals.

    KANJI: 一 二 三 五 六 七 八 九 十
    ROMAN: I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X

    When first learning these numbers, the first thing that jumps to mind is why four bucks the trend. Why isn't "Quattuor" written as four vertical lines, and why isn't "yon" written as four horizontal lines?

    Well, as it turns out, they used to be written as four lines!
    Thus...
    一二三亖
    I II III IIII
    But it's believed that 三/亖 and III/IIII became tricky to discern when written in small writing and/or when read at a distance. Thus bucking the trend and changing the characters just alleviated initial confusion between three and four.

    Now the Roman numeral for Quattuor makes sense, it's 1 before 5: IV. And the trend continues with other numbers like 9 being 1 before 8 (IX) etc. But what about Kanji? As it turns out, the character 四 didn't originally mean "four." It originally meant "breath" and evolved from an image of a mouth (口) with teeth and tongue inside.

    目目...目目
    .......
    ............. Kanji: the ancient world's answer to Emoji

    "So how did "breath" come to mean "four"?!"
    Homophones. Apparently in Old or Middle Chinese and Japanese, the word for breath was pronounced in the exact same way as the word for four. Thus people just started writing "breath" as a written synonym for four, and it eventually replaced the word entirely, and a new Kanji had to be devised for "breath" (息).

    #themoreyouknow
    Very interesting read, love hearing about the origins of kanji. I'm about 8 months in to my formal Japanese studies, and I usually find that learning about the origin of a kanji helps my brain retain the information.

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