Martial arts discussion thread

[KalEl]

I'm still reading them. Too bad your not in Vic. I could show you what gkr karate has the potential to do

[Bartrim]

I read them. I find them quite interesting. Although I will say this. I think you are way to critical of every school you attend. It seems like you are on this quest to find the perfect martial art, which will never happen as none of them are perfect. It just seems like you go from school to school learning bits and pieces but not really getting anywhere because as no school can live up to your high expectations so you just move on.

Mind you I say that only coming into this thread two years ago when I started actively training. I'm not 100% certain of your training methods or history prior to then.

[KalEl]

I read them. I find them quite interesting. Although I will say this. I think you are way to critical of every school you attend. It seems like you are on this quest to find the perfect martial art, which will never happen as none of them are perfect. It just seems like you go from school to school learning bits and pieces but not really getting anywhere because as no school can live up to your high expectations so you just move on.

Mind you I say that only coming into this thread two years ago when I started actively training. I'm not 100% certain of your training methods or history prior to then.

I am enclined to agree I think you (goki) are expecting to much and underestimating what is right in front of you. You have to be an empty cup, but your cup seems to be full and all the training you do now just flows right off the top. As I've said before 3months is not a fair period to assess any martial arts properly regardless of prior experience. Your sinercism toward it won't give you a fair outlook on it. Don't get me wrong I'm not attacking you, but you need to empty that cup.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm looking at everything from a self defence POV, because that's my reason for learning martial arts. It's what I told the GKR rep and I've said the same thing to my Sensei. I told the rep that I'm _not_ interested in learning martial arts for competition, and she assured me that GKR IS geared for purely self defensive training. It was under that assurance that I agreed to the 3 month trial period.

My comments about my GKR training have been focused around one thing: Is this teaching me to fight? -- simple as that. I am NOT at any stage criticising it because it's different from Tai Chi or what not... I don't mind different, as long as it gets the job done and performs the function of teaching me how to fight, and how to fight well.

I am enclined to agree I think you (goki) are expecting to much and underestimating what is right in front of you. You have to be an empty cup, but your cup seems to be full and all the training you do now just flows right off the top.

Honestly... compared with the traditionalists that I used to train with... my standards are LOW. I am NOT a high level martial artist... don't let the gut fool you. If you met any of the guys I used to train with, you'd know that I'm by NO means advanced and my standards really aren't that high -- by traditional martial arts standards.

And if I'd initially thought that GKR was completely rubbish, I wouldn't have bothered paying $65 for the trial membership and rocking up to 1.75 lessons per week at $10 per lesson. And at each lesson I put in 110% effort, which Sensei has always praised me for (she sometimes uses me to motivate some of the lazier coloured belts, saying that "even this white belt is trying harder than you!"). But ultimately, it is up to GKR to impress me. That's what I'm here doing the trial for.

It's like, well GKR.. here I am. Now prove yourself to me. I'm giving GKR everything I've got... now let's see what it gives me in return. And so far, I'm still waiting to be impressed.

As I've said before 3months is not a fair period to assess any martial arts properly regardless of prior experience.

Well dude, I'm not going to continue spending money on a school that isn't giving me desired results. Would you?

Perhaps your GKR school is better... but all I can tell you is that the GKR schools around my area have yet to impress me. I mean, we all can only make judgments on things based on our own experiences, right? And so far, in my personal experience, I remain unimpressed with GKR.

Let me put it this way, a lot of people are critical of Tai Chi as a martial art. And I don't blame them. A lot of Tai Chi schools are rubbish in terms of teaching self defence - my own Yang Tai Chi school included. If someone told me that they did trial lessons of Tai Chi and found that it taught them nothing useful for fighting, then fair enough. It doesn't mean that Tai Chi itself is useless for fighting, but I will concede that there aren't many good schools out there who can TEACH Tai Chi properly for fighting. Most Tai Chi is taught as a form of holistic meditation and exercise... some people don't even know it's a fighting form, they just think it's like Yoga or Pilates (which is understandable, as Tai Chi does offer similar health benefits as those).

If, for example, you went and learnt Tai Chi because I told you that it's an awesome martial art (and I do believe this)... but you came back and said, "Gok! This Tai Chi school I'm going to is crap! All we do is slow form meditation and practice! And when we do Push Hands, we already start in contact. That's stupid... as if you're gonna start a real fight like that! These people are way too soft, they would get absolutely creamed in a real fight!" etc. -- then I'm not going to disagree with you. A lot of Tai Chi schools _do_ teach like that... even in China... and I think it's silly (from a self defence POV).

So I'm not necessarily saying that GKR itself is a "bad style," but so far I've yet to be impressed by the GKR schools in my local area. Ultimately -- the teacher/school is more important than the style. Since my Chen Tai Chi teacher stopped teaching I've been searching for another school to train at. The Yang Tai Chi school is the best (re: least worst) of what I've found in my area so far... but unfortunately they only have one lesson a week and it happens on the one day where I have to work late. My timetable will change in September-October, so if it frees up my Wed evenings then I'd like to resume my Yang Tai Chi training... unless I find something better in the interim.

[GoktimusPrime]

Umm... okay?

Anyway, allow me to simplify what I said in my previous post(s) like this:
Any opinions expressed by me about GKR are based on my experiences with individual schools that I have participated in and do not necessarily reflect an extension of how it may be practised or taught in other schools.

Here's a quick sketch I made contrasting my experience of Karate at my local GKR dojos, with my experience of Okinawan Goju Karate in a dojo in Japan.


The practitioner of traditional Okinawan Karate asked me to punch him as hard as I could, as many times as I liked. He didn't flinch. At my GKR Dojo, if I so much as tap my partner they cry foul.

I understand the need for safety in training. As I've mentioned many times on this thread, martial arts teachers have a legal duty of care. Having said that...
1. Safety shouldn't mean that training is so far "sanitised" that it becomes counter-productive to teaching students how to fight. Tip sparring works on the same principle as Touch Footy. Instead of hard contact (e.g. punching or tackling), you just tip and that counts as a "hit". It doesn't hurt, but it gives you tactile feedback letting you know that you've been "hit" (or "tackled" in the case of Touch Footy). Could you imagine trying to play Non-Contact Footy?
2. Insurance will cover schools/instructors so long as reasonable care is taken. Insurance companies recognise that martial arts is a potentially dangerous activity... that's why you take out insurance. But so long as reasonable measures are in place, then insurance companies will cover you. e.g. providing students with safety equipment, giving reasonable instructions for safety (e.g. tipping only, no full strengthed strikes, instructors have valid first aid training, coaching qualifications etc.). Teachers/schools get in trouble is where there are reasonable measures aren't taken and are found to be negligent and/or derelict in their duty of care. If you try to provide a reasonably safe training environment and an injury occurs, then you're covered. It's the same legal duty of care that school teachers have.

[Hot Rodimus]

Gok I am truly suprised, hence my first post in such a long time. I would have thought that someone so experienced in martial arts like yourself would have heard of the reputation GKR has?

GKR in martial arts circles is commony referred to as 'Amway Karate' and derives very little respect from all outside it's braiwashing like influence. Google it and you will see what I refer to, its all a pyramid scheme to make money for those at the top of the organisation (hence poor classes, sub par sensei's or sensei's who are only green belt etc but get fast tracked to black so the can open a dojo or start teaching). Even the syllabus is to be laughed at (though I think you are finding this out).

In the past I have trained in Shito ryu and Goju Karate for many years, when I bought a new house and moved to a new area and looked for places to train the only place remotely close was GKR, it was never a consideration and I opted to travel 30 - 40 mins each way to a decent school.

If recognised for what it is, GKR can have some benefits, mostly for kids I think as the fitness, coordination and discipline can be good for them but that is all. Google and you shall see.

[Bartrim]

One of the few times I felt dissapointed with a lesson last night. It was freezing cold. We got warmed up and pushed pretty hard by Sensei who kept us warm by constantly having us on the move doing stuff. So I was looking forward to a real challenging lesson as I thought it would be a fast paced lesson to keep us warm and prevent injuries. It was the exact opposite. After the warm we worked on de-escalating volatile situations for the rest of the lesson. It was the first lesson when I haven't used my rehydration formula at the end as I felt fine.

[GoktimusPrime]

Gok I am truly suprised, hence my first post in such a long time. I would have thought that someone so experienced in martial arts like yourself would have heard of the reputation GKR has?

GKR in martial arts circles is commony referred to as 'Amway Karate' and derives very little respect from all outside it's braiwashing like influence. Google it and you will see what I refer to, its all a pyramid scheme to make money for those at the top of the organisation (hence poor classes, sub par sensei's or sensei's who are only green belt etc but get fast tracked to black so the can open a dojo or start teaching). Even the syllabus is to be laughed at (though I think you are finding this out).

In the past I have trained in Shito ryu and Goju Karate for many years, when I bought a new house and moved to a new area and looked for places to train the only place remotely close was GKR, it was never a consideration and I opted to travel 30 - 40 mins each way to a decent school.

If recognised for what it is, GKR can have some benefits, mostly for kids I think as the fitness, coordination and discipline can be good for them but that is all. Google and you shall see.

Damnit, you sound like my conscience! I must say that I am inclined to agree with you. But at the time I signed up I was feeling...

1) Desperate for any sort of MA training, as my Yang Tai Chi classes only run once a week, and since last Sept/Oct it's clashed w/ my work schedule, so I haven't really done much training since then.

2) I told the GKR sales rep about my reservations about GKR and I told her that I was solely interested in learning GKR for self defence. She repeatedly and vehemently assured me that GKR is geared for self def, and convinced me to try it out for 3 months and judge for myself. So I agreed.

...perhaps I should get a Gi and sew a Chupa-Chups logo onto it. Ah well... at least I can say that I gave GKR a go, and that my opinions about it come from more substantial first hand experience and not based solely on reputation. But I must say that so far, my GKR Dojo is absolutely living up to its reputation as a McDojo.

KalEl: perhaps your Dojo isn't like this... but Dojos like mine are giving your school/style a bad reputation.

One of the few times I felt dissapointed with a lesson last night. It was freezing cold. We got warmed up and pushed pretty hard by Sensei who kept us warm by constantly having us on the move doing stuff. So I was looking forward to a real challenging lesson as I thought it would be a fast paced lesson to keep us warm and prevent injuries. It was the exact opposite. After the warm we worked on de-escalating volatile situations for the rest of the lesson. It was the first lesson when I haven't used my rehydration formula at the end as I felt fine.

+1; climate should be taken into account when preparing lessons.

I also don't like having much down time during lessons. My Chen Tai Chi teacher said that we should always be doing something physically productive in class... so for example, when all students are demonstrating forms, once you've done all you know, rather than just sitting down and watching the more senior students do their form, you either go back and practice your forms again, or if you want to watch, stand in a stance or sit down and stretch while you're watching. In GKR they sometimes get us all to do kata, and they get us to sit down while the higher belts finish off their katas, but in the mean time you can feel yourself cooling down. So I just keep stretching to keep myself warm -- cos later when everyone's told to get up and resume training, I hear all the non-brown belts moan because they feel stiff... whereas I'm ready to jump right into it.

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*Yeah, I don't know why they spelt "defence" as a verb instead of a noun.

[KalEl]

KalEl: perhaps your Dojo isn't like this... but Dojos like mine are giving your school/style a bad reputation.

As i have said before i am fully aware of the clubs (massive) downsides, but as a long term student and sensei of the club (also worked for them for 6mths) I have a very good understanding of the club.

Unfortunately you got the bad end of the spectrum i think, i have experienced this before within gkr and outside of it.

I don't have a dojo, as in a club like gkr it is best to train between a couple of different instructors (black belt). Later classes (second class) are gerally better quality for people more serious as children tend not to participate, there are also advanced classes.

As for a combat based club, no they are not one. As a technical style the training has great potential for this, watch any of the open division forms.

I often watch the kumite from gkr and shake my head, but that being said at higher levels it can be quite interesting.

If you want true "combat" do boxing or kickboxing competitively (not just cardio stuff) or mma training, otherwise you will always be disappointed.

[GoktimusPrime]

If you want true "combat" do boxing or kickboxing competitively (not just cardio stuff) or mma training, otherwise you will always be disappointed.

I've always been pretty happy with traditional martial arts for combat (that's why I'm often interested to learn about the lineage of a style when I hear about it, to see how authentic/traditional they are, or if it's a modern style)... after all, that's what they were created to do (and refined over centuries in battlefields before the advent of the submachine gun). That's what my Chen Tai Chi training was like and I found it worked really well.

People stopped using martial arts in battle after the advent of the sub machine gun; invented in WWI, but came into common use around WWII. Before then melee fighting was still highly used in combat.

I've tried kickboxing/muay thai and MMA... I found them disappointing because like many modern MAs I come across, because they enter in tournament comps, they always fight according to some set of rules. The moment you introduce any "rules" to a fight, then your training becomes less effectual for combat because in a real fight there are NO rules and the best moves are also the dirtiest. Competition fighters like a "nice and clean fight," traditionalists have no qualms about fighting dirty.