Martial arts discussion thread

[KalEl]

I've always been pretty happy with traditional martial arts for combat (that's why I'm often interested to learn about the lineage of a style when I hear about it, to see how authentic/traditional they are, or if it's a modern style)... after all, that's what they were created to do (and refined over centuries in battlefields before the advent of the submachine gun). That's what my Chen Tai Chi training was like and I found it worked really well.

People stopped using martial arts in battle after the advent of the sub machine gun; invented in WWI, but came into common use around WWII. Before then melee fighting was still highly used in combat.

I've tried kickboxing/muay thai and MMA... I found them disappointing because like many modern MAs I come across, because they enter in tournament comps, they always fight according to some set of rules. The moment you introduce any "rules" to a fight, then your training becomes less effectual for combat because in a real fight there are NO rules and the best moves are also the dirtiest. Competition fighters like a "nice and clean fight," traditionalists have no qualms about fighting dirty.

why do you want to learn to quote un-quote fight?

[GoktimusPrime]

Later classes (second class) are gerally better quality for people more serious as children tend not to participate, there are also advanced classes.

I always go to the second class. I went to the first class the first time I went because I didn't know... but that first night I stayed on for the second class. But after that I've only ever been to the teen/adult classes.

As for a combat based club, no they are not one.

Gah! The GKR rep told me the complete opposite of this, even after I'd explicitly told her that I only wanted to learn martial arts for fighting/self defence and nothing else. She then vehemently assured me that GKR was totally suited to fight training.

I often watch the kumite from gkr and shake my head, but that being said at higher levels it can be quite interesting.

In traditional MA schools you learn how to fight a lot faster than that. It's because in the old days you needed soldiers/militia/guards to be combat ready sooner rather than later. I used to know a guy who'd learnt a sport martial art for about a year. I sparred with him and I got lots of "hits" into him yet he couldn't get hits onto me, which frustrated him. I didn't see him for months after that, in the meantime he went off and started learning a traditional martial art. When I met him again he'd been learning the traditional MA for 3 months, and we sparred again. While he still couldn't get any hits onto me, I also couldn't get any hits onto him! So in a span of only 3 months he'd already learnt to become fairly competent in not getting hit! (e.g. blocking, parrying, evading etc.)

I also knew another guy who'd NEVER done any martial art before, and started learning a traditional style. After learning it for 5-6 months he met up with a friend who had a black belt 1st or 2nd dan in a sport martial art. They sparred. The newbie guy floored the black belt in 3 moves. They tried again - finished in 2 moves. Tried again, finished in 1 move. Traditional MAs isn't about "Let's keep throwing hits at each other and see how many points we get," it's about "This ends now!" Hence Karate's saying of "One hit one kill" -- the ideal fight is one that finishes in one move (unlikely in reality against a competent opponent, but still - you aim to finish a fight as quickly as possible and not to prolong conflict).

why do you want to learn to quote un-quote fight?

Different people like to learn martial arts for different reasons. Some people just like to learn it as a fun competitive sport, others like to learn it as an "art form", others like to learn it to health/fitness, and others like to learn it for "fighting." Some like to learn it for a combination of reasons and there are a variety of different martial arts schools out there that cater for these different needs. Everyone's entitled to their personal preferences... but when the GKR rep came to my door I clearly and explicitly told her that my primary interest in learning martial arts is for self defence. She asked me if I was interested in any of the other reasons, and I said no. On that premise she then assured me that GKR was absolutely suited to my needs... so far, I'm finding that it's not.

Different strokes for different blokes... I get it, that's fine. I don't expect every school to teach martial arts for self defence nor do I expect every martial artist to be learning for that reason. But I think people should at least be upfront and honest about what their school is teaching. If a person joins a martial art that's geared toward being more of a "hobby art" rather than a "fighting art," then that school ought to be upfront and honest about it. That's why I respect the Sunday Sensei, because he _was_ upfront and honest with me. He openly admits that GKR isn't ideal for self defence/fighting. If only the sales rep was as honest as him... I wouldn't have bothered signing up and wasting my money on something that doesn't suit my needs. In education we say "the right course for the right student," i.e. there isn't one subject that's "better" or "worse" than another... it depends on the individual student.

[KalEl]

Different people like to learn martial arts for different reasons. Some people just like to learn it as a fun competitive sport, others like to learn it as an "art form", others like to learn it to health/fitness, and others like to learn it for "fighting." Some like to learn it for a combination of reasons and there are a variety of different martial arts schools out there that cater for these different needs. Everyone's entitled to their personal preferences... but when the GKR rep came to my door I clearly and explicitly told her that my primary interest in learning martial arts is for self defence. She asked me if I was interested in any of the other reasons, and I said no. On that premise she then assured me that GKR was absolutely suited to my needs... so far, I'm finding that it's not.

Different strokes for different blokes... I get it, that's fine. I don't expect every school to teach martial arts for self defence nor do I expect every martial artist to be learning for that reason. But I think people should at least be upfront and honest about what their school is teaching. If a person joins a martial art that's geared toward being more of a "hobby art" rather than a "fighting art," then that school ought to be upfront and honest about it. That's why I respect the Sunday Sensei, because he _was_ upfront and honest with me. He openly admits that GKR isn't ideal for self defence/fighting. If only the sales rep was as honest as him... I wouldn't have bothered signing up and wasting my money on something that doesn't suit my needs. In education we say "the right course for the right student," i.e. there isn't one subject that's "better" or "worse" than another... it depends on the individual student.

You didn't answer :P why do YOU want to learn to 'fight'?

[Hot Rodimus]

I agree with KalEl 100%. If you want to learn how to fight and be challenged so you don’t spar one handed (which despite how you might explain it to your training partner is very disrespectful regardless of their skill) then take up Muay Thai or MMA.

A traditional MA is most always geared to the student who is a bit of a romantic and wants to learn the art of “insert name here” as it has been passed down from the mystical hands of Master whoever or they are looking for something structured with clearly defined goals/rewards (think coloured belts). Another reality is that TMA schools have to try and retain students so making it ‘easy’ or less contact orientated helps attract and retain students while operating under the guise of teaching effective self-defense.

Having said that, I have met some great fighters in my time doing karate and other TMA but they were a rarity and usually black belt level or higher Dan grades. Quite often this ability to fight is also a combination of their personality (some people will never be fighters) and life experiences.

My eyes were truly opened the first time I took up Muay Thai, those guys train hard, teach effective, simple, easily learnt techniques and have plenty of contact. Heck you even cop a beating holding the pads for your training partner a lot of the time. It will sound like I have a massive ego but in TMA circles I was a better than average fighter and had real life experience to back it up, I was nothing compared to a lot of the guys I trained with and despite me thinking I could take a hit I was actually pretty soft compared to these guys.

You keep stating what you want and how such and such a school has let you down. If you want contact join Muay Thai or MMA, sure you say there are rules and that is no good but also keep in mind nothing else is going to prepare or condition you for apply force to an opponent or receiving it. Cross train it with BJJ (I can vouch for its effectiveness from experience) and then you negate the lack of grappling and groundwork. Or better yet train MMA which is very close to real fighting as all aspects or range are covered.. Also you are always going to encounter rules, they are a there to help keep you and your training partner safe and able to turn up the to the next training session/work etc.

Unless you want to start a fight club or go down to your local pub and start smashing punters you are never going to get a ‘real experience’. Training is almost always a compromise as nothing teaches you on what to really expect in a fight or will show you how effective you really are except for a real fight.

[Bartrim]

Honestly... compared with the traditionalists that I used to train with... my standards are LOW. I am NOT a high level martial artist... don't let the gut fool you. If you met any of the guys I used to train with, you'd know that I'm by NO means advanced and my standards really aren't that high -- by traditional martial arts standards.

Gok I just went to Yellow Pages and searched Martial Arts Schools in the Blacktown area (I just picked that as a generalisation. I know you live out west I'm not sure where... even though I have been to your place) and I got quite a few listings. Now if you do have low standards then one of the schools in that long list should be able to provide you with what you are looking for. If you can't find anything satisfactory then I think your standards are higher then what you initially believe.

[5FDP]

Come train with me Gok... I'll learn ya

[GoktimusPrime]

You didn't answer :P why do YOU want to learn to 'fight'?

Because that's what I enjoy learning in martial arts. It's a personal preference thing. It's like asking someone "Why do you enjoy entering tournaments?" or "Why do you enjoy keeping your toys MISB?"

I enjoy opening my toys and playing with them because I find it fun/enjoyable. Likewise I find it martial arts enjoyable when it's directly applicable to fighting/self defence. I'm not trying to put down other people's preferences in MAs by saying this... but it's my personal preference.

I agree with KalEl 100%. If you want to learn how to fight and be challenged so you don’t spar one handed (which despite how you might explain it to your training partner is very disrespectful regardless of their skill) then take up Muay Thai or MMA.

We have established a friendly rapport from previous lessons (where we've often chatted during breaks or before/after lessons), so he wasn't upset by it. He was MUCH more upset by me tapping him. And as I'm sure you know, when you fight/spar, you just go off automatic instinct. It's all well and good for people to say "no contact," but ultimately I'm just gonna do what I'm trained to do - as I'm sure you (and everyone else here) would do as well.

A traditional MA is most always geared to the student who is a bit of a romantic and wants to learn the art of “insert name here” as it has been passed down from the mystical hands of Master whoever or they are looking for something structured with clearly defined goals/rewards (think coloured belts).

I want to learn what works. I will admit that I have a preference for TMAs because it has a history of being demonstrated to work, but tbh if I found a Mod MA school that worked I'd train with them. There are plenty of TMA schools that don't effectively teach self defence too; the individual teacher/school matters more than the style.

Another reality is that TMA schools have to try and retain students so making it ‘easy’ or less contact orientated helps attract and retain students while operating under the guise of teaching effective self-defense.

Yeah, that's a fair point. TMA classes are incredibly tiny compared to Mod MA classes. When I did Chen Tai Chi, toward the end if we were lucky to have 3 people in the class. TMAs seem to lack the "glamour appeal" of some Mod MAs because we don't do competitions, we don't have fancy ceremonies (we never bowed at anyone -- just called the teacher by his first name; he _refused_ to be called "Shifu" and insisted on being treated as a "learned equal")... our school had a uniform but nobody ever wore it. We didn't have coloured belts/sashes, no grades, no tests... just pure training. Eventually class numbers just kept dwindling so yeah... now those classes no longer run and I'm looking for a new school. Maybe teaching pure Traditional MAs just isn't commercially viable in Australia these days.

My eyes were truly opened the first time I took up Muay Thai, those guys train hard, teach effective, simple, easily learnt techniques and have plenty of contact. Heck you even cop a beating holding the pads for your training partner a lot of the time.

That's the way training should be! Every hit should be aimed at issuing/delivering power _through_ the target and not at it! (and the pad holders should be standing in proper stances to absorb the power of the hits - it also helps teach you how to hold your stances while you're being pummeled). As I've mentioned before, I have tried MT and MMA and I personally found them to be disappointing. Perhaps it's just the schools (maybe I've yet to find a good MT and MMA school). I'd like to really try Muay Boran -- the traditional/ancient Thai martial art that Muay Thai is derived from! I've heard about it, but I've never seen it for myself IRL! I've been told that they use more wider and solid stances (like in other TMAs) compared to the higher up stances of MT.

I was training with a local MMA/Kung Fu school for a while, but then they actually closed shop and nicked off. I asked one of the neighbouring business operators what happened to them, and they told me that they'd stopped paying their rent and just did a runner!

You keep stating what you want and how such and such a school has let you down. If you want contact join Muay Thai or MMA, sure you say there are rules and that is no good but also keep in mind nothing else is going to prepare or condition you for apply force to an opponent or receiving it. Cross train it with BJJ (I can vouch for its effectiveness from experience) and then you negate the lack of grappling and groundwork. Or better yet train MMA which is very close to real fighting as all aspects or range are covered.. Also you are always going to encounter rules, they are a there to help keep you and your training partner safe and able to turn up the to the next training session/work etc.

I don't mind rules for safety -- what I mind are rules that are counter-intuitive to self defence. Like saying "Don't target the groin" (which means that you don't bother to keep your groin safe if nobody's ever going to strike you there) or "no contact", which of course means you stop learning to make contact with your hits, let alone issuing power.

For example, I often do "tip sparring," where "tipping" is a safety rule so that you're not actually hitting the person with force, but just tapping them with your hands, feet, elbow, knee etc. Enough force to make contact and let them know that they've been contacted, but not enough to really hurt (at worst it's like a slap). When going for the groin, we go for the inner groin muscle or upper inner thigh, striking just next to genitals, but actually at them. Alternatively or additionally you can also enforce students to wear protective gear. So I'm fine with rules that modify fighting for safe training -by law schools have to do this (re: Duty of Care), but it should be done in a way that isn't counter-intuitive to how a fight should go.

It's like say teaching kids footy but at first you start with Touch Footy rules instead of allowing tackling. But otherwise the rules of the game are pretty much the same as actual tackle footy. It's a rule that allows people to play footy in a manner that's safer than tackling, but isn't necessarily counter intuitive to tackle footy because you're still following the same rules. When I spar in some schools and they say, "You can't go for the groin," well, that's significantly altering the state of play. I'd rather, "Go for the upper inner thigh" or "everyone must wear a groin guard"... that allows for safer and intuitive training.

I have tried some BJJ before and I've found it is quite good for 1 vs 1 fighting. A bit unsure on fighting multiple opponents as BJJ has always taught me to go onto the ground with my opponent (whereas in Chen Tai Chi we do "upright" grapples submission holds and never go to the ground). Also, some BJJ guys I've sparred against leave their groins open... but I think that's because their techniques were sloppy, like they'd be pinning me, but because their bodies are tightly gripping mine, they leave a gap which I can worm my arm(s) into and grab their nards. But I've had instructors explain to me that the holds should be really tight so that there are no gaps. There is a BJJ school not far from me, and I am thinking about having a look at that when my GKR trial is over. There's also another Yang Tai Chi that's further away from me... might also try that if I can arrange the time to get there. But yeah, BJJ is a style that I hold in high regard. I also have a lot of respect for Goju Karate too; that's a nice traditional Okinawan style that I find has good solid tight defences with excellent endurance training (as part of their Fujian heritage).

So I am still shopping around. Just kinda on hold atm cos I'm locked into GKR for another 2 months.

Unless you want to start a fight club or go down to your local pub and start smashing punters you are never going to get a ‘real experience’. Training is almost always a compromise as nothing teaches you on what to really expect in a fight or will show you how effective you really are except for a real fight.

Ya know... I am seriously thinking about making a kind of fight club; like maybe finding other martial arts enthusiasts around my area (even at this GKR school I've met some nice friendly people whom I might keep in touch with even if I choose not to continue GKR) and just get together informally and cross train with each other. I personally have all kinds of safety equipment - protectors, pads, shields... even an old gym mat We could just meet up at a park or something and train with each other.

Come train with me Gok... I'll learn ya

Can you PM me with your school details? I might look into it after my GKR stint is done.

[KalEl]

Because that's what I enjoy learning in martial arts. It's a personal preference thing. It's like asking someone "Why do you enjoy entering tournaments?" or "Why do you enjoy keeping your toys MISB?"

I enjoy opening my toys and playing with them because I find it fun/enjoyable. Likewise I find it martial arts enjoyable when it's directly applicable to fighting/self defence. I'm not trying to put down other people's preferences in MAs by saying this... but it's my personal preference.

i understand that i was just curious about the reasons behind it.

[Bartrim]

Ya know... I am seriously thinking about making a kind of fight club; like maybe finding other martial arts enthusiasts around my area (even at this GKR school I've met some nice friendly people whom I might keep in touch with even if I choose not to continue GKR) and just get together informally and cross train with each other. I personally have all kinds of safety equipment - protectors, pads, shields... even an old gym mat We could just meet up at a park or something and train with each other.

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

[KalEl]

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

if we were only all in the same area