Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

From another thread:

The majority of stabbings these days occur from drunking Caucasian after a night of drinking, and the majority of them take up kick boxing classes.

Pppftt, amateurs. The good knife fighter is the one who casually strolls past you then suddenly turns and stabs you in the back multiple times. You can learn more about realistic knife defence by watching this video - the guy there is an accomplished practitioner of several styles of martial arts (including Yin Baguazhang, Xingyi, Taijiquan etc.) and also grew up in rough predominantly black ghettoes in the U.S. His home page is here.

I don't know why, but in my experience the majority of people I've come across who train in Thai kickboxing are thugs. I've only met three practitioners of Thai kickboxing who aren't thugs - one of whom only did it for a year before he quit, and another who actually practises Muay Boran, which is the original traditional Thai martial art which Muay Thai evolved from. Muay Thai is the sport whereas Muay Boran is the martial art - their form is far more like other traditional martial arts and quite different from MT/Thai Kickboxing. I'm not saying that all practitioners of MT/kickboxing are thugs - this is just from my own personal experience.

[GoktimusPrime]

Autocon I'll teach you some kung fu...

I won't pretend to know much about liuhebafa, but I believe that it's classified as an internal martial art. The internal arts are (typically) more passive and defensive, with a greater focus on awareness and a relatively more relaxed use of biomechanics instead of using brute strength.

Internal styles will teach you to absorb or redirect the force of an attack, which legally puts you in a better position than using say a bone-shattering block from an external style.

Compare:
+ External: Karate block "..he's clubbing down on my bone. Yeah I can feel that on my nerves." - it's simple and effective, but also very painful. You could potentially injure your attacker with this block who could in turn try to use this injury as "evidence" that you were assaulting him and not vice versa (it would be your word against his unless you have an independent third party witness).
+ Internal: Bajiquan application - in 0:39-1:10 of this video you'll notice that the defender is simply parrying the punch to the face followed by moving in and shoving the attacker away. There's no damaging block or even hitting the opponent back; simply a nice shove to get your attacker to fuck off. The rest of this video shows an actual counterattack - which is not what I would recommend for Autocon at this stage, but even then you can see that the punch works more on using biomechanical force rather than brute strength.

I'm sure Kyle will be able to explain all of this better at the Nexus Fair. It's better to just see this stuff for yourself rather than reading about it. Also have a talk to 1orion2many.

[GoktimusPrime]

I share MV75's sentiments. I would recommend seeking more professional advice (e.g. LawAccess).

That's nice Goktimus. In my experience, "martial arts" only tend to work in a controlled "gym" environment against other well timed "martial arts".

Surviving traditional martial arts worked in battlefields for centuries before the advent of the submachine gun. I say surviving because it was like natural selection - if your martial art didn't work, you would be horribly killed in battle. A lot of martial arts schools don't teach MAs properly, but that doesn't mean that the styles themselves are inherently flawed. e.g.: just because someone doesn't know how to do maths or apply it doesn't mean maths doesn't work.

Take up mma or boxing instead.

I personally remain skeptical of modern fighting sports like MMA and modern boxing, but that's just my personal opinion. At the end of the day the right martial art for you is the one that teaches you to fight effectively (and hopefully legally). If MMA and boxing works for you, then that's great.

Things to keep in mind about self defence (regardless of what style you prefer):
+ There's no such thing as rules or honour in a real fight.
+ ALWAYS assume that your opponent is stronger, faster and better than you are. Also assume that they're probably armed too.
+ Be prepared to make mistakes. Remember that you will be scared shitless in a fight and you will fuck up, and that's fine as long as you leave a margin of error to compensate for your mistakes.
+ Be prepared to fight in unfavourable conditions. You may not be fighting on a smooth, flat and dry surface. You may be outnumbered. You may be feeling sick or tired. Most attacks are surprise attacks (nobody's gonna announce themselves and bow at you before a fight!) - be prepared to counter attacks that you _won't_ see coming.
+ Be aware of the legal implications of self defence. You are only permitted to use reasonable force in self defence, using excessive force can get you into trouble -- hence my recommendation for internal styles as they don't focus so much on using physical force.

No matter what style you do your training should reflect all this (and more).

P.S.: if you're looking for a combat art that's legally permitted in sport fights, then I'd recommend Brazilian Jujutsu (often mispelt as Jiujitsu). Jujutsu is related to Taijutsu, which was the unarmed combat used by Samurai. Jujutsu is also classified as an internal martial art as it focuses on the use of biomechanics instead of raw strength (i.e.: it specialises in grappling, wrestling and submissions rather than striking)

[kup]

Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!

[GoktimusPrime]

I did try to organise something like that years ago; where we could discuss and demonstrate/practice techniques in safety. Trained martial artists know how to use their techniques with safety (cos that's how we practice), and I also have various kinds of equipment like pads, shields, armour etc. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye and sues you for public liability. But yeah, you can get a lot more out of talking about martial arts IRL within one minute than you could achieve in 800 words of text online (a single move tells a thousand words).

Unfortunately the meet never took off due to lack of interest. The only other Sydney based OTCA member that I regularly talk to about martial arts nowadays is Rampage. Jimreborn has martial arts training, but he's not an active member these days. I don't know of any other martial arts enthusiasts among our active Sydney members, and any other active members who are MA enthusiasts that I know of are outside NSW and thus too far away to organise such a meet! Rampage and I will inevitably talk about martial arts at some stage whenever we see each other at TF meets.

[Tabias Prime]

Can would bring my Zangetsu but i think i could get in the shit with the cops..I did do a bit of Kung-fu when i was younger..

[MV75]

+ There's no such thing as rules or honour in a real fight.

That's largely why I commented upon "controlled environments".

As for me, Taekwondo is what I did. It's pretty aggressive and is designed to literally cripple the opponent.

But when I did it, it was mostly a "for fun" type of thing which is pretty much what most martial arts classes these days are for.

Lots of "real world" fights are close up and make sure you hit them harder types of affairs. Street fighting, as that's all drunken / robbers / bullies really know.

I'd also imagine ancient battles were more of a "cut their guts open first" type of affair in the field as well. If you lost your sword, then tackle them and pummel their faces, hit them with rocks and other brutal types of things. You wouldn't be waiting in a defense stance for them to throw a punch and you to counter it, then let them have their turn, etc like you would do in a public showing.

[GoktimusPrime]

Lots of "real world" fights are close up and make sure you hit them harder types of affairs. Street fighting, as that's all drunken / robbers / bullies really know.

Yeah but what I was talking about is defending yourself against thugs without becoming a thug. And this is kinda where the difference lies between internal and external martial arts. Now _generally_ speaking external styles are like fight fire with fire. They meet force with force. Internal styles on the other hand neutralise and/or redirect force (back at the attacker). There are various different levels of range - long, medium and close.

I'd also imagine ancient battles were more of a "cut their guts open first" type of affair in the field as well. If you lost your sword, then tackle them and pummel their faces, hit them with rocks and other brutal types of things. You wouldn't be waiting in a defense stance for them to throw a punch and you to counter it, then let them have their turn, etc like you would do in a public showing.

Depends on the context of the fight situation. Sometimes you need to go on the offensive, but other times you need to be defensive. It's like other things that require strategy (e.g.: sports, chess etc.) Some styles like Aikido are _completely_ defensive. They have to wait for the attacker to throw the first punch because they have no attacks. It doesn't mean that they'll let the attacker _land_ that punch, but they'll let them throw it! Jujutsu works in the same way as does many other passively defensive styles.

Some other styles/forms intentionally bait their opponent too. i.e.: they let them throw the first punch or kick because, as Admiral Ackbar would say, "It's a trap!" As Beast Wars Megatron once said, "Deception is the better part of valour."

[SGB]

Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!

LOL!!!

[GoktimusPrime]

Can would bring my Zangetsu but i think i could get in the shit with the cops..

That's why I like the idea "defend yourself from thugs without becoming a thug." Legally we are permitted to use reasonable force in self-defence. It's when you use unreasonably excessive force that you may find yourself in trouble with the law.

It's also because of this that I have a personal preference for the internal martial arts, due to their more passively defensive nature.

Here's an example with a person demonstrating traditional Aikido:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aicHsMC6rxM
You'll notice that at no point does the defender actually strike his attackers. There are no punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, biting etc.; nothing offensive, all defensive. What may appear as strikes to some people are actually pre-emptive blocks. He's not hitting his attackers, but at times he will stick his hand out to obstruct them or to enforce them to fall down - and the only reason why the attackers fall down so hard is because the defender is using his attacker's force against them. The defender is using very little of his own power. The entire essence is about subduing and restraining your attacker, not hitting them.

Tai Chi is another example of a passively defensive martial art. Their push hands exercise is which allows them to practice the principles of redirecting an attacker's force against them.

There are plenty of other passively defensive internal styles and I'd be here forever if I wanted to discuss them all, but I hope that these brief examples give an idea of how the basic concept of passively defensive fighting works.

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Disclaimer: Classification in martial arts, just like classification in many other areas, is highly arbitrary and subjective. In reality all martial arts contain both internal and external elements. It is possible for external martial artists to be passively defensive too (just as it's possible for an internal martial artist to be aggressively offensive). It's really up to how the individual chooses to apply his/her training and techniques.