Ozformers Transformers Club of Australia


Go Back   Ozformers Transformers Club of Australia > Beyond the Spacebridge (Non-Transformers Section) > Non-toy stuff

Sightings/Sales

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 7th January 2008, 11:07 PM
GoktimusPrime's Avatar
GoktimusPrime GoktimusPrime is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 27th Dec 2007
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 33,297
Default Martial arts discussion thread

Here's the old thread

There are two things I want to start discuss here:
1. Roundhouse punches: dos and don'ts
2. Ducking and weaving: why bother?

Roundhouse Punches

Believe it or not, but some people don't know how to throw a real roundhouse punch - and I think this comes from the fact that some people are too used to training with boxing gloves on or that they train for competitions rather than self defence... I don't know... I've only seen a few schools teach this dubious style of roundhouse punching (thankfully most schools I've seen don't teach this way).

Anyway, here's what I'm talking about...



Fig.A1: This is the dubious roundhouse punch in question here. I've heard some people describe it as "holding a coffee mug" - so you imagine you're holding a coffee mug while swinging your fist around to the opponent. In other words, your palm is facing toward the opponent. I have two problems with this method of punching.
1/ it doesn't deliver as much torque (and thus generate as much power) as more conventional forms of roundhouse punching (Fig.A3) due to the lack of rotation in the forearm. Remember that torsion is rotational energy - the more you twist the more torque you generate. So bio-mechanically speaking this is a weaker punch.
2/ It leaves exposes the softer part of the forearm and wrist (re: tendons!) toward the attacker, which leaves it vulnerable to attacks, particular to being cut by a blade (more on this in a moment).

Fig.A2: Not a roundhouse punch, but a "Karate chop" which is a similar style attack only that it's an open hand instead of a fist. I think it's also called a knife hand or "shuto" in some styles. Although not a punch I prefer this over the "coffee mug" style as it at least gives you a 90 degree forearm/wrist rotation, thus generating more torque. The palm is facing "Heaven" (upward) and the softer part of the forearm and tendons are not directly facing the opponent.

Fig.A3: What I consider to be a more conventional roundhouse punch and it's what I've seen more commonly done in martial arts - Kung Fu, Karate etc etc.
1/ This gives you a 180 degree rotation, double the amount of torque generated by the 'chop.' This kind of roundhouse punching was favoured by Muslim warriors during the Crusades.
2/ The palm and tendons are facing away from the opponent, leaving the harder part of the forearm/wrist facing the opponent.

Now, in the chance that your roundhouse punch is intercepted by a blade and you get cut, here are the options offered by the "coffee mug" and more conventional styles of roundhouse punching.

Fig.B1: In the conventional style, the blade cuts the harder side of the forearm/wrist (this part of the arm can be hardened through conditioning) - although it's painful and unpleasant, with most superficial slashes you will be able to continue using that forearm and hand in fighting.

Fig.B2: In the "coffee mug" style, the blade cuts the softer side of the forearm/wrist and it doesn't take a deep slash to cut the tendons. Once the tendons are cut, your hand is rendered ineffectual - not to mention that it's a whole lot more painful too. This part of your forearm cannot be hardened through conditioning. Even the toughest body-building gym junkie will have soft wrists around the tendons. That's why it's easy to feel someone's pulse around there.

So yeah... my conclusion about the coffee mug style is that it's just a big waste of time. :/

Ducking and Weaving

Ducking and weaving is a technique commonly used in competitive fighting sports like modern boxing. This is all fine in a sport environment where you're essentially just fighting as a game, but it's a whole different matter when you're looking at self-defence. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because I have come across a few schools that actually teach their students ducking and weaving but without disclaiming that the move cannot be used in a real fight, and in some cases, claiming that it can be used in self defence.

Here's a simple description of how ducking and weaving works and why I have my doubts about its application in self defence...



Fig.A: The attacker (Green Goblin) throws a roundhouse punch at the defender's (Spiderman) head.
Fig.B: The defender ducks under the attacker's incoming punch and will weave out to the side for a counterstrike.
Fig.C1: Defender has weaved and stepped out to the side and launched a punch back at the defender.

That's ideally how ducking and weaving is supposed to work. My question about this move is that when the defender is ducking and weaving under the incoming punching arm, he leaves his neck and upper spine exposed, allowing the attacker to quite easily attack the neck/spine (Fig.C2). In this example I've got the Green Goblin dropping his elbow onto Spidey's vertebrae, but he could also deliver a downward chop, punch etc. - all kinds of nasties... the problem here is that Spidey has left his spine totally exposed.

In competitive sports like boxing, it is illegal to attack the spine, hence they don't defend it. In a real fight, there are no rules.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 8th January 2008, 02:08 AM
Borgeman's Avatar
Borgeman Borgeman is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 27th Dec 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,220
Default

roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...

George
__________________
www.mariokart64.com
-------------------------------------------------------
[Insert former photobucket hosted image here]
--------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes, the wrong thing feels so right"
--------------------------------------------------------
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 8th January 2008, 09:31 AM
TheDirtyDigger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I don't know Gok. Looks a little contrived to me.

Last edited by TheDirtyDigger; 8th January 2008 at 08:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 8th January 2008, 06:12 PM
GoktimusPrime's Avatar
GoktimusPrime GoktimusPrime is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 27th Dec 2007
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 33,297
Default

Charming.

That's the difference between ducking and weaving (bobbing) and other more conventional forms of ducking in traditional martial arts, e.g.: using a Circle-Entering Step or Kneeling Stance - the crucial difference is that with something like a Circle-Entering stance the spine is kept erect thus keeping it unexposed. With a modern boxing style duck and weave, the head leans forward and thus the spine faces "Heaven" and is exposed.

A boxing style duck and weave is easier to do because it doesn't require as much crouching/kneeling with the leg work, but at the expense of exposing the spine - which is an illegal target in boxing, so boxers don't really care about that. It is possible to be quite dexterous with a Circle Entering stance, but it requires more lower body work - more springing, hopping, sliding etc., and of course, it keeps the spine less exposed.

It's for this same reason why boxers will lean their head forward when delivering an uppercut - it gives more power to the uppercut, but exposes the head and upper vertebrae to danger from a strike or head lock/neck-twist

Here are some images of how boxers will happily lean their heads forward...

An illustration of the bobbing style of ducking/weaving used in modern boxing and other competition fights


The boxer on the right is blocking his attacker's uppercut by dropping his elbow, but notice how he's willing to lean his head toward his opponent - this would only work in a sport/comp fight. In a real fight it is dangerously exposing the head/neck/upper spine


A boxer will lean his head forward to deliver more power for his uppercut, but again leaving the head/neck exposed to danger if he were in a real fight



Now compare this with more traditional martial arts...

A Kneeling Stance - although in this application he's attacking an opponent on the ground, which is kinda strange. If I wanted to attack a grounded opponent I'd just repeatedly kick/stomp. But anyway, the actual stance here is sound - note how the upper body is erect.


When attacking a standing opponent, the Kneeling stance should look more like this...

...although this guy is leaning to his left for some odd reason. Combine this guy's handwork with the guy above's leg/body position and you have a more ideal kneeling stance.

A Circle Entering stance - this stance is effectively spot on. This application has him kneeling quite low which a lot of people do for conditioning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgeman
roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...
That sounds like a competition attitude. In a real fight or actual self defence situation, there are no "dirty" moves - you do what you can to survive. There are legal limits in what you can do (i.e.: equal or lesser force) but beyond there's virtually no limitation on what you can do to defend yourself in real life.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 8th January 2008, 08:29 PM
sifun's Avatar
sifun sifun is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 27th Dec 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,330
Default

I think bob and weave can be used in the correct situation, even works in the ring to some extent as well, so i don't see how it can't in a real fighting situation.
if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly

Maybe they do it for take downs as well for ground fighting
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8th January 2008, 10:54 PM
GoktimusPrime's Avatar
GoktimusPrime GoktimusPrime is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 27th Dec 2007
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 33,297
Default

It works well in the ring because it is illegal to attack (and especially illegal to break/severe) the neck and upper spine. Aside from laws, there are also referees, judges and the audience (re: witnesses!) who would greatly disuade your attacker from pulling an illegal move like that. In a street fight, you don't have these conditions.

Although the law does restrict what we can do in a fight - mainly in regard to using equal or lesser force - you cannot automatically assume that your opponent is going to be totally law-abiding. I mean, in a self-defence situation, if the other person started the fight, they've already broken the law by assaulting you, so it's not as if they've established a good reputation with you for being a nice law-abiding citizen! It's for this same reason that I've often been critical against people who expose their genitals in a fight. Works fine in the ring where attacking the genitals is disallowed, but not in a real fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sifun
if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly
In other words, assuming that your opponent is inferior. That's a dangerous assumption to make in a fight. In a fight you should always assume that your opponent is superior to you. They may not be, but you ought to assume that they are stronger, faster and better skilled than you are. And that's another gripe I have with a lot of martial arts schools/instructors. :/

The one thing to keep in mind in a real fight is Murphy's Law: anything that can go wrong will. Always have a Plan B in case Plan A screws up and a Plan C in case Plan B screws up too and so on and so on - it becomes a connective cyclical flow that changes according to how the situation changes. This is visually represented in the Yin Yang and Ba Gua hexagrams (King Wen)which actually forms a 64-bit algorithm as it's all based on a series of sequential logic gates.

The Ba Gua Hexagrams: 8 across x 8 down = 64b (bits) = 8B (bytes)


It is also the nature of the Art of War. You must be able to constantly adapt and change to outmaneouvre your opponent. You don't need martial arts training to fight an inferior foe... the real art of war is defeating someone who's better than you are!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 9th January 2008, 09:07 AM
Saintly's Avatar
Saintly Saintly is offline
Rank 1 - New/Inactive
 
Join Date: 2nd Jan 2008
Location: NSW (southwest metro)
Posts: 3,760
Default

that hexagram just waaaaay over my head!

just fight already :P
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 9th January 2008, 09:22 AM
i_amtrunks's Avatar
i_amtrunks i_amtrunks is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 31st Dec 2007
Location: Western Sydney
Posts: 6,735
Default

You forgot to mention another good attack when your opponent ducks under a punch...

Knee to the face or sternum...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 9th January 2008, 09:22 AM
GoktimusPrime's Avatar
GoktimusPrime GoktimusPrime is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 27th Dec 2007
Location: Sydney NSW
Posts: 33,297
Default

It's binary logic - 00010011110100001010011101010001110010

0 = yin, 1 = yang



It's all about what technique to use when, and the timing is often dependent on the situation, which is constantly in flux. So Yin Yang often represents two extreme techniques in fighting...
e.g.:
0 = soft, 1 = hard
0 = high, 1 = low
0 = retreat, 1 = advance
0 = grapple, 1 = strike
0 = close range, 1 = long range
0 = circular, 1 = linear

When should you be 0, when should you be 1? It depends on what the opponent is doing. And another thing that the Yin Yang symbol points out is that in each extreme there is an element of the other. You can be hard with some element of softness (e.g.: Okinawan Goujuu), and soft with some element of hardness (e.g.: qigong).

Quick example, one mistake that a lot of newbs make when they're grappled and/or placed into submission holds is that they hardened/seize up their body and try to flee by moving/pulling away from the grappler... and usually all that does is allow the grappler to tighten their lock! They're often surprised when you show them that counter-grappling usually involves relaxing and softening your body and moving into the grappler rather than away from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_amtrunks
You forgot to mention another good attack when your opponent ducks under a punch...

Knee to the face or sternum...
That would work too, but dropping onto the vertebrae is easier IMO and harder to counter. If you were to try to knee someone in the face or sternum while they were bobbing under your punch it's not that hard for them to block it - blocking a downward strike to your back while you're leaning forward - I don't see how that's even possible. You'd be better off just tackling/charging the other guy rather than trying to block.

Last edited by GoktimusPrime; 9th January 2008 at 09:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 9th January 2008, 12:04 PM
i_amtrunks's Avatar
i_amtrunks i_amtrunks is offline
Rank 6 - Deluxe Member
 
Join Date: 31st Dec 2007
Location: Western Sydney
Posts: 6,735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
That would work too, but dropping onto the vertebrae is easier IMO and harder to counter. If you were to try to knee someone in the face or sternum while they were bobbing under your punch it's not that hard for them to block it - blocking a downward strike to your back while you're leaning forward - I don't see how that's even possible. You'd be better off just tackling/charging the other guy rather than trying to block.
Yeah kneeing is easier to block, but you really have to be focused to block it since you are trying to move almost all your body at once in reaction to another person.

Blocking your neck when under a person is nigh impossible, and even if it's only a hyper-active 6 year old, if they get an elbow your neck it really hurts!

Hell go for the win, knee to the sternum and a blow to the neck simultaneously!
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time now is 08:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.