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  1. #1
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    Default Martial arts discussion thread

    Here's the old thread

    There are two things I want to start discuss here:
    1. Roundhouse punches: dos and don'ts
    2. Ducking and weaving: why bother?

    Roundhouse Punches

    Believe it or not, but some people don't know how to throw a real roundhouse punch - and I think this comes from the fact that some people are too used to training with boxing gloves on or that they train for competitions rather than self defence... I don't know... I've only seen a few schools teach this dubious style of roundhouse punching (thankfully most schools I've seen don't teach this way).

    Anyway, here's what I'm talking about...



    Fig.A1: This is the dubious roundhouse punch in question here. I've heard some people describe it as "holding a coffee mug" - so you imagine you're holding a coffee mug while swinging your fist around to the opponent. In other words, your palm is facing toward the opponent. I have two problems with this method of punching.
    1/ it doesn't deliver as much torque (and thus generate as much power) as more conventional forms of roundhouse punching (Fig.A3) due to the lack of rotation in the forearm. Remember that torsion is rotational energy - the more you twist the more torque you generate. So bio-mechanically speaking this is a weaker punch.
    2/ It leaves exposes the softer part of the forearm and wrist (re: tendons!) toward the attacker, which leaves it vulnerable to attacks, particular to being cut by a blade (more on this in a moment).

    Fig.A2: Not a roundhouse punch, but a "Karate chop" which is a similar style attack only that it's an open hand instead of a fist. I think it's also called a knife hand or "shuto" in some styles. Although not a punch I prefer this over the "coffee mug" style as it at least gives you a 90 degree forearm/wrist rotation, thus generating more torque. The palm is facing "Heaven" (upward) and the softer part of the forearm and tendons are not directly facing the opponent.

    Fig.A3: What I consider to be a more conventional roundhouse punch and it's what I've seen more commonly done in martial arts - Kung Fu, Karate etc etc.
    1/ This gives you a 180 degree rotation, double the amount of torque generated by the 'chop.' This kind of roundhouse punching was favoured by Muslim warriors during the Crusades.
    2/ The palm and tendons are facing away from the opponent, leaving the harder part of the forearm/wrist facing the opponent.

    Now, in the chance that your roundhouse punch is intercepted by a blade and you get cut, here are the options offered by the "coffee mug" and more conventional styles of roundhouse punching.

    Fig.B1: In the conventional style, the blade cuts the harder side of the forearm/wrist (this part of the arm can be hardened through conditioning) - although it's painful and unpleasant, with most superficial slashes you will be able to continue using that forearm and hand in fighting.

    Fig.B2: In the "coffee mug" style, the blade cuts the softer side of the forearm/wrist and it doesn't take a deep slash to cut the tendons. Once the tendons are cut, your hand is rendered ineffectual - not to mention that it's a whole lot more painful too. This part of your forearm cannot be hardened through conditioning. Even the toughest body-building gym junkie will have soft wrists around the tendons. That's why it's easy to feel someone's pulse around there.

    So yeah... my conclusion about the coffee mug style is that it's just a big waste of time. :/

    Ducking and Weaving

    Ducking and weaving is a technique commonly used in competitive fighting sports like modern boxing. This is all fine in a sport environment where you're essentially just fighting as a game, but it's a whole different matter when you're looking at self-defence. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because I have come across a few schools that actually teach their students ducking and weaving but without disclaiming that the move cannot be used in a real fight, and in some cases, claiming that it can be used in self defence.

    Here's a simple description of how ducking and weaving works and why I have my doubts about its application in self defence...



    Fig.A: The attacker (Green Goblin) throws a roundhouse punch at the defender's (Spiderman) head.
    Fig.B: The defender ducks under the attacker's incoming punch and will weave out to the side for a counterstrike.
    Fig.C1: Defender has weaved and stepped out to the side and launched a punch back at the defender.

    That's ideally how ducking and weaving is supposed to work. My question about this move is that when the defender is ducking and weaving under the incoming punching arm, he leaves his neck and upper spine exposed, allowing the attacker to quite easily attack the neck/spine (Fig.C2). In this example I've got the Green Goblin dropping his elbow onto Spidey's vertebrae, but he could also deliver a downward chop, punch etc. - all kinds of nasties... the problem here is that Spidey has left his spine totally exposed.

    In competitive sports like boxing, it is illegal to attack the spine, hence they don't defend it. In a real fight, there are no rules.

  2. #2
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    roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...

    George
    www.mariokart64.com
    --------------------------------------------------------
    "Sometimes, the wrong thing feels so right"
    --------------------------------------------------------

  3. #3
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    I don't know Gok. Looks a little contrived to me.
    Last edited by TheDirtyDigger; 8th January 2008 at 08:42 PM.

  4. #4
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    Charming.

    That's the difference between ducking and weaving (bobbing) and other more conventional forms of ducking in traditional martial arts, e.g.: using a Circle-Entering Step or Kneeling Stance - the crucial difference is that with something like a Circle-Entering stance the spine is kept erect thus keeping it unexposed. With a modern boxing style duck and weave, the head leans forward and thus the spine faces "Heaven" and is exposed.

    A boxing style duck and weave is easier to do because it doesn't require as much crouching/kneeling with the leg work, but at the expense of exposing the spine - which is an illegal target in boxing, so boxers don't really care about that. It is possible to be quite dexterous with a Circle Entering stance, but it requires more lower body work - more springing, hopping, sliding etc., and of course, it keeps the spine less exposed.

    It's for this same reason why boxers will lean their head forward when delivering an uppercut - it gives more power to the uppercut, but exposes the head and upper vertebrae to danger from a strike or head lock/neck-twist

    Here are some images of how boxers will happily lean their heads forward...

    An illustration of the bobbing style of ducking/weaving used in modern boxing and other competition fights


    The boxer on the right is blocking his attacker's uppercut by dropping his elbow, but notice how he's willing to lean his head toward his opponent - this would only work in a sport/comp fight. In a real fight it is dangerously exposing the head/neck/upper spine


    A boxer will lean his head forward to deliver more power for his uppercut, but again leaving the head/neck exposed to danger if he were in a real fight



    Now compare this with more traditional martial arts...

    A Kneeling Stance - although in this application he's attacking an opponent on the ground, which is kinda strange. If I wanted to attack a grounded opponent I'd just repeatedly kick/stomp. But anyway, the actual stance here is sound - note how the upper body is erect.


    When attacking a standing opponent, the Kneeling stance should look more like this...

    ...although this guy is leaning to his left for some odd reason. Combine this guy's handwork with the guy above's leg/body position and you have a more ideal kneeling stance.

    A Circle Entering stance - this stance is effectively spot on. This application has him kneeling quite low which a lot of people do for conditioning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Borgeman
    roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...
    That sounds like a competition attitude. In a real fight or actual self defence situation, there are no "dirty" moves - you do what you can to survive. There are legal limits in what you can do (i.e.: equal or lesser force) but beyond there's virtually no limitation on what you can do to defend yourself in real life.

  5. #5
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    I think bob and weave can be used in the correct situation, even works in the ring to some extent as well, so i don't see how it can't in a real fighting situation.
    if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly

    Maybe they do it for take downs as well for ground fighting

  6. #6
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    It works well in the ring because it is illegal to attack (and especially illegal to break/severe) the neck and upper spine. Aside from laws, there are also referees, judges and the audience (re: witnesses!) who would greatly disuade your attacker from pulling an illegal move like that. In a street fight, you don't have these conditions.

    Although the law does restrict what we can do in a fight - mainly in regard to using equal or lesser force - you cannot automatically assume that your opponent is going to be totally law-abiding. I mean, in a self-defence situation, if the other person started the fight, they've already broken the law by assaulting you, so it's not as if they've established a good reputation with you for being a nice law-abiding citizen! It's for this same reason that I've often been critical against people who expose their genitals in a fight. Works fine in the ring where attacking the genitals is disallowed, but not in a real fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifun
    if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly
    In other words, assuming that your opponent is inferior. That's a dangerous assumption to make in a fight. In a fight you should always assume that your opponent is superior to you. They may not be, but you ought to assume that they are stronger, faster and better skilled than you are. And that's another gripe I have with a lot of martial arts schools/instructors. :/

    The one thing to keep in mind in a real fight is Murphy's Law: anything that can go wrong will. Always have a Plan B in case Plan A screws up and a Plan C in case Plan B screws up too and so on and so on - it becomes a connective cyclical flow that changes according to how the situation changes. This is visually represented in the Yin Yang and Ba Gua hexagrams (King Wen)which actually forms a 64-bit algorithm as it's all based on a series of sequential logic gates.

    The Ba Gua Hexagrams: 8 across x 8 down = 64b (bits) = 8B (bytes)


    It is also the nature of the Art of War. You must be able to constantly adapt and change to outmaneouvre your opponent. You don't need martial arts training to fight an inferior foe... the real art of war is defeating someone who's better than you are!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle
    Autocon I'll teach you some kung fu...
    I won't pretend to know much about liuhebafa, but I believe that it's classified as an internal martial art. The internal arts are (typically) more passive and defensive, with a greater focus on awareness and a relatively more relaxed use of biomechanics instead of using brute strength.

    Internal styles will teach you to absorb or redirect the force of an attack, which legally puts you in a better position than using say a bone-shattering block from an external style.

    Compare:
    + External: Karate block "..he's clubbing down on my bone. Yeah I can feel that on my nerves." - it's simple and effective, but also very painful. You could potentially injure your attacker with this block who could in turn try to use this injury as "evidence" that you were assaulting him and not vice versa (it would be your word against his unless you have an independent third party witness).
    + Internal: Bajiquan application - in 0:39-1:10 of this video you'll notice that the defender is simply parrying the punch to the face followed by moving in and shoving the attacker away. There's no damaging block or even hitting the opponent back; simply a nice shove to get your attacker to fuck off. The rest of this video shows an actual counterattack - which is not what I would recommend for Autocon at this stage, but even then you can see that the punch works more on using biomechanical force rather than brute strength.

    I'm sure Kyle will be able to explain all of this better at the Nexus Fair. It's better to just see this stuff for yourself rather than reading about it. Also have a talk to 1orion2many.
    Last edited by GoktimusPrime; 23rd January 2010 at 08:29 AM.

  8. #8
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    I share MV75's sentiments. I would recommend seeking more professional advice (e.g. LawAccess).

    Quote Originally Posted by MV75
    That's nice Goktimus. In my experience, "martial arts" only tend to work in a controlled "gym" environment against other well timed "martial arts".
    Surviving traditional martial arts worked in battlefields for centuries before the advent of the submachine gun. I say surviving because it was like natural selection - if your martial art didn't work, you would be horribly killed in battle. A lot of martial arts schools don't teach MAs properly, but that doesn't mean that the styles themselves are inherently flawed. e.g.: just because someone doesn't know how to do maths or apply it doesn't mean maths doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by MV75
    Take up mma or boxing instead.
    I personally remain skeptical of modern fighting sports like MMA and modern boxing, but that's just my personal opinion. At the end of the day the right martial art for you is the one that teaches you to fight effectively (and hopefully legally). If MMA and boxing works for you, then that's great.

    Things to keep in mind about self defence (regardless of what style you prefer):
    + There's no such thing as rules or honour in a real fight.
    + ALWAYS assume that your opponent is stronger, faster and better than you are. Also assume that they're probably armed too.
    + Be prepared to make mistakes. Remember that you will be scared shitless in a fight and you will fuck up, and that's fine as long as you leave a margin of error to compensate for your mistakes.
    + Be prepared to fight in unfavourable conditions. You may not be fighting on a smooth, flat and dry surface. You may be outnumbered. You may be feeling sick or tired. Most attacks are surprise attacks (nobody's gonna announce themselves and bow at you before a fight!) - be prepared to counter attacks that you _won't_ see coming.
    + Be aware of the legal implications of self defence. You are only permitted to use reasonable force in self defence, using excessive force can get you into trouble -- hence my recommendation for internal styles as they don't focus so much on using physical force.

    No matter what style you do your training should reflect all this (and more).

    P.S.: if you're looking for a combat art that's legally permitted in sport fights, then I'd recommend Brazilian Jujutsu (often mispelt as Jiujitsu). Jujutsu is related to Taijutsu, which was the unarmed combat used by Samurai. Jujutsu is also classified as an internal martial art as it focuses on the use of biomechanics instead of raw strength (i.e.: it specialises in grappling, wrestling and submissions rather than striking)
    Last edited by GoktimusPrime; 23rd January 2010 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #9
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    Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!

  10. #10
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    I did try to organise something like that years ago; where we could discuss and demonstrate/practice techniques in safety. Trained martial artists know how to use their techniques with safety (cos that's how we practice), and I also have various kinds of equipment like pads, shields, armour etc. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye and sues you for public liability. But yeah, you can get a lot more out of talking about martial arts IRL within one minute than you could achieve in 800 words of text online (a single move tells a thousand words).

    Unfortunately the meet never took off due to lack of interest. The only other Sydney based OTCA member that I regularly talk to about martial arts nowadays is Rampage. Jimreborn has martial arts training, but he's not an active member these days. I don't know of any other martial arts enthusiasts among our active Sydney members, and any other active members who are MA enthusiasts that I know of are outside NSW and thus too far away to organise such a meet! Rampage and I will inevitably talk about martial arts at some stage whenever we see each other at TF meets.

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