Martial arts discussion thread

[Lint]

What do you guys think when you hear that someone has a black belt? My first thought is, "So?"

What do you guys think when you hear that someone doesn't have a black belt? My first thought is, "Whew!"

Because that means they probably haven't spent a few years or more actively taking martial arts classes building strength, fitness, technique and confidence. It also means they probably didn't have to sit an exam where their abilities were tested to a high level covering strength, form, spirit, weapon technique, resilience against multiple rounds of sparring and discipline.

Sure theres always the possibility that a black belt is a complete pussy but the fact that they are 'just a beginner' doesn't make me any more complacent.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sure. We should always assume that our opponent is superior to us in every way, and train to fighting against superior opponents (I don't see the value in training to fight against someone who is equal or inferior to yourself - the real challenge/skill is defending yourself against a superior foe).

But at the same time I'm saying that just because someone has a black belt doesn't necessarily mean they're really good. Likewise just because someone has a white belt, or perhaps doesn't have ANY martial arts or boxing experience/training, doesn't necessarily mean they're bad either! I once heard a story from a guy who was a black belt, I think he was 1st degree iirc. He considered himself quite good and was thinking about becoming an instructor at his school. His friend had just started learning martial arts at a different school/style; he'd only been learning for a few months. They decided to have a friendly spar. The novice defeated the black belt decisively in three moves. The black belt couldn't believe what had happened to him and thought it was just beginner's luck, so they tried again. The novice defeated the black belt in two moves. They tried again and the fight was finished in one move to the novice's favour.

Even the novice had no idea how he had managed to defeat the black belt so easily, as his understanding of martial arts at the time was very minimal. It was simply because the novice was a better fighter (in this particular case because he had a better teacher - but obviously you have to be a good student too).

If a person simply says, "I'm a black belt," then I'm not immediately impressed. If they then describe or demonstrate their techniques and show me that they actually have decent fighting skills, then I'm impressed! I would be equally impressed if it came from a white belt or a person with no belt at all.

[liegeprime]

bah just shoot em.

[GoktimusPrime]

bah just shoot em.

Self Defence Against Fruit

[bruticus]

What do you guys think when you hear that someone has a black belt?

err. whats the big deal anyways?
i have a couple black belts at home...
in fact, i wear one everyday...you know the leather ones that keeps your pants up??

[klystron]

Very interesting thread, Gok. Enjoyed all the reading, vids, and links. Especially the posts with your Spidey, GG, Wolverine & Mirage assistants (Sempai).
I have been training in Karate for a couple of years now, and was quite surprised to read your mentions about schools that segregate students of different grade levels when sparring. Ours does not. I remember sparring brown and black belts before I even had a uniform. Nowadays I am a brown belt and often spar against lower grades. I am happy to "ease off" a bit and work with them on techniques (etc) during our rounds, just as done to me when I started. Sparring against the yellows/orange/greens serves to remind me how far I have come. The lower belts often expend much energy in brute attacks which I can easily block and counter. Often at the end of a round they are breathing heavy and exhausted, where as I am not. I was once like them but since I have learnt to relax in my karate and control my breathing. Mind you, the black belts in my class still give me a good working over.
I was also interested in the lack of contact aspects. Whilst I agree with you that nowadays contact and any resulting injury is a potential can of proverbial worms, some contact is like an unwritten requirement for progressing thru the grades. When I graded to blue, I remember the black belts telling me that blue is when learn to take hits. I feel that this is an essential part of any (non demonstration) martial art. Its like playing football -- you might be the best winger the world has ever seen, but you're not worth shit if you cant get tackled without ending up broken. I have seen broken noses and ribs at our higher belt gradings. I have seen people throw-up from exhaustion and hits to the gut during gradings. Its all part of karate as far as I am concerned. Sparring in class is necessary to prepare for sparring at gradings. It needs to be free, and there needs to be some amount of (controlled) contact.

The above comments are not the only, nor most, important aspects of mine, or any other form of karate. They are just 2 dumb rambles that I wanted to contribute.

[bruticus]

Self Defence Against Fruit

this is how you really defend yourself against a watermelon (1 minute 16 sec in the clip)

i wonder if klystron does this kind of karate?

[GoktimusPrime]

klystron: I know where you're coming from, but keep in mind that martial arts instructors have a legal Duty of Care over their students, just like school teachers. Sparring isn't a traditional part of martial arts training - and while I can see the merit of free sparring, the fact is that traditional martial arts have survived for centuries without the need for it... and that was back during the age where martial arts mattered a lot more than they do now (i.e.: before the invention of modern-day firearms where people would use martial arts in warfare, whereas today it's only used for civil self-defence and sport/entertainment).

Also people do have lives outside of martial arts. They need to go to school or work the next day; something that can be greatly inconvenienced if they become seriously injured during training. People like Buddhist Monks (e.g. Shaolin) were able to beat the snot out of each other during training because they had no lives. They lived in secluded temples with vows of poverty and chastity. If you had to take a day off it just meant you got a break from meditating and praying all day. More importantly, monks were highly skilled healers too, so usually if you got grievously hurt your fellow monks would spend the following day(s) healing you. You didn't need to take time off school or work... or toy hunting...

There are other ways to condition the body to take hits, such as hitting your own body or against a partner's. Start gently/lightly then gradually increase the strength of the hits as your tolerance improves. I've seen some Karate practitioners repeatedly punch themselves lightly in the guts as they do sit ups. I've also seen several Karate and Kung Fu practitioners practice limb knocking. Some people use those wooden dummies (often called Wing Chun dummies). I've seen some people practicing jabbing their fingers at sandbags. I also always punch bare knuckle and I have focus pads which are designed to sting your knuckles (the contact area is harder than regular pads - some actually have a small piece of wood behind the padding (mine's just really dense padding)). Throwing/grappling practice is good for building up endurance by virtue of being thrown around all the time (similar to your rugby tackle analogy) -- that's why a lot of good practitioners of throwing arts like Jujutsu and Aikido have pretty solid endurance.

Fear training is also really difficult because you know you're in a safe environment. Sparring introduces a slight element of fear because everything's random, but ultimately you still know you're safe. It's a difficult dilemma for instructors who want to teach their students to fight under stress and fear, but of course they have to keep their students safe. See my previous posts about fear simulation training, which I consider to be safe but still induce that "Holy F***!" element of being attacked by surprise - which is something regular sparring doesn't do. Unless you introduce fear element training into sparring.

Having said all that it is possible to have safe sparring. But you'd have to ensure that participants are fully armoured, and IMO I would recommend as a minimum:
+ headguard (although I find faceguards to obstruct my vision, so I detach them - also because I wear glasses)
+ chest/body guard
+ groin guard
+ shin pads

And these I consider optional, but not absolutely essential:
+ mouth guards
+ neck guard

And of course the sparring match must be actively supervised by the instructor. Ultimately the instructor/school is legally liable for student welfare/safety. If a serious injury occurs then the student can make a claim against to school. This is why instructors have insurance (paid through membership and class fees), which will cover the cost of the claim if it can be demonstrated that the instructor was not derilict of his/her Duty of Care. If there is no negligence, then the insurer will cover the cost of the claim, but if there is negligence then it isn't covered, but the cost of insurance premiums will go up (similar to why insurance for under 25yo drivers is more expensive) - which effects us all because cost of membership and lessons increase. Just look at how much you were paying for lessons when you started martial arts compared to now - have you noticed an increase? (it can also depend on the school - some larger schools are able to absorb the cost whereas smaller ones have to pass it onto students)

Believe it or not, but I frequently come across martial arts schools which allow students to free spar without any protection. I knew of one guy who was sparring without protection and he got kicked in the groin so hard that his left testicle ascended into his abdomen, and he had to be taken to hospital where the doctor had to re-descend it! His girlfriend laughed and told him, "Now you know what it feels like to have ovaries!" The instructor wasn't even there when it happened. If that student had decided to make a claim, he would probably succeed. But instead he did was most students do when this sort of thing happens... he left the school.

bruticus: Meh, I'm personally not impressed by people breaking stuff. As Mr. Miyagi once said when Daniel-san asked him if he could break stuff, "Don't know. Never been attacked by tree."

I'm also not a great believer of the leaping/flying kick. It looks fancy but is quite impractical for most fight situations (I heard that the odds of you actually successfully pulling off a leaping kick in a real fight against a competent opponent is about the same as being hit by lightning or winning lotto -- i.e.: pretty darn low!). One hilarious justification I hear for the leap kick is that it was used for dismounting riders! Yeah right... you have the mass of a grown man charging at you with the acceleration and velocity of a horse at full gallop, and you jump at him with your leg extended?! Riiiiiight. (Shaolin monks would actually dismount riders by attacking the horse (you don't even need to hit them hard, horses are easily startled/frightened when attacked directly and will throw their riders off their backs when they panic)).

Anyone who's cut a watermelon would know that they're pretty _easy_ fruit to break (once you pierce the outer shell it pretty much crumbles). I'd be more impressed if I saw someone shatter a coconut with their head.

But I once spoke to a Kyokushin Karate practitioner who said that the stuff-breaking exercises have nothing to do with practical techniques or application, but all to do with building confidence. He said that the first time he broke a piece of wood he felt that he could do anything and that it was a massive boost to his self-esteem. They have reusable breaking boards now which is much more environmentally friendly.

Just out of interest klystron, what style of Karate do you practice?

[autobreadticon]

man i miss playing Double Dragon two player on super nintendo..

[GoktimusPrime]

The electronic gaming thread is here.