3rd party transformers..

[kup]

It's a bit easier to understand when you try thinking about it without the strawman arguments.

I imagine I'd probably have a bit more consideration for Hasbro's copyright if 1: they hadn't started the franchise by buying up a bunch of Japanese toys and reselling them under a different label, 2: they actually catered to the high-end fan market themselves (seriously, the market's there and they're largely choosing to ignore it - you can call it entitlement if you want, personally I see it more as consumers voting with their wallets), and 3: if they didn't happily skirt copyright themselves via the same 'similar but legally distinct' tricks for their own products when it's convenient for them, such as the alt-modes for Classicsverse Sideswipe and Sunstreaker. If HTT is down with doing it for their own products, I hardly think it's reasonable to condemn 3PP companies and/or fans for doing it to them. Legally most well-regarded 3PP companies manage to skate the thin line between 'resembles' and 'infringes on copyright', while "morally" (if you're into that sort of thing) they're just as guilty of said offense as 3PPs are. Knock-offs, those are kind of a different story IMO, but we don't seem to be talking about them here.
Add to all that the fact that - for my part at least - it's not costing HTT sales, inasmuch as I'll still happily buy official TFs that tickle my fancy just as I'll happily buy unofficial non-TFs that get my interest, and somehow I just can't quite find the energy for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth I'm apparently supposed to be doing on behalf of poor, violated HasTakTom.

Yeah, Hasbro/Tomy would be pretty hypocritical if they start calling out 3rd parties for 'indirect' copyright infringement when they are just as guilty themselves.

Universe Sunstreaker, Universe Sideswipe, Universe Prowl, etc, etc. It is clear what those car modes are supposed to be but with enough changes to not directly infringe copyright - The same trick as 3rd parties!

[Lord_Zed]

You obviously haven't really seen MakeToys, MMC or FansToys figures then. And Takara's QC is soooooooooo much better. Generations Blitzwing, MP Rodimus, MP Lambos and MP Laserbeak are 4 recent shining examples of Takara's superior QC.

Is that sarcasm? I am afraid I must disagree if not as though I have not experienced TakTom's Blitzwing, I found Rodimus to be a lemon filled with flaws that should have been corrected before release. While my Laserbeak was fine, Kup's was a disaster that was miss-assembled from the get go, meanwhile my MP Soundwave has missing paint apps, so while Taktom might be better than Hasbro most of the toys you mention I would not consider good examples.

Conversely the quality of the most recent Maketoys and MMC acquisitions make TakTom's QC look sloppy.

All and all I'd say QC is hit and miss with all companies, but I imagine with the smaller third party companies with their much lower productions numbers and much smaller set ups are sometimes able to make fixes or changes easier late into the production process than a mega company like Hasbro.

I'm far from pleased with the cost of Third party toys, but when it comes to quality Hasbro seem to be in a race to the bottom, each successive wave of toys seems cheaper or shoddier than the last, so if I want a decent robot toy seems like I have to got to TakTom, Bandai or a third party. What good is a cheaper collectible toy if it's forgotten and thrown aside in an instant? So for a toy that is great an memorable then I'm happy to pay a little (or sometimes a lot) extra for.

[kup]

I think Trent's post is supposed to be sarcasm but it fits well as it highlights how ridiculous it is to say that those toys have 'superior' QC.

[Trent]

Is that sarcasm?

Yes it was. Sorry all, should have made it clearer. I forget that you can't hear the tone of my voice when I'm typing.

[Gouki]

Yeah, right, I should totally just start buying the third party toys! Absolutely, I'm totally wrong to even question them! Never mind the fact that most of them are to me, and this is far more important to me than anything (I really don't care about the copyright too much, but I really hate entitlement (and that's what it is) and I'm becoming more and more resigned to the fact that I have to accept the people who keep using 'privilege' as a negative are completely right), incredibly aesthetically unpleasing.

1: they hadn't started the franchise by buying up a bunch of Japanese toys and reselling them under a different label,

Oh right! Which they did illegally not getting any licenses or anything, right? It was completely Hasbro just doing what they want regardless, right?

This supposed high-end collector market keeps jumping up and down for attention, but I really don't see it as big. Just loud. I see no proof that it's something that would be worth the investment from either company. Otherwise it would be there from Hasbro or TakaraTomy.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Yeah, right, I should totally just start buying the third party toys! Absolutely, I'm totally wrong to even question them! Never mind the fact that most of them are to me, and this is far more important to me than anything (I really don't care about the copyright too much, but I really hate entitlement (and that's what it is) and I'm becoming more and more resigned to the fact that I have to accept the people who keep using 'privilege' as a negative are completely right), incredibly aesthetically unpleasing.

Not at all. If you don't like/want 'em, by all means don't buy 'em. But that doesn't mean you're entitled (and a sense of entitlement is exactly what it is) to condemn those of us who do choose to partake of them without our having the right of reply. You're just as free to share your opinion and/or to vote with your wallet as anyone else - but that cuts both ways.

This supposed high-end collector market keeps jumping up and down for attention, but I really don't see it as big. Just loud. I see no proof that it's something that would be worth the investment from either company. Otherwise it would be there from Hasbro or TakaraTomy.

You mean, like this?
The market for high-end TFs is by definition there, or else 3PPs wouldn't exist.

Oh right! Which they did illegally not getting any licenses or anything, right? It was completely Hasbro just doing what they want regardless, right?

There's a slight difference between creating something yourself and buying up someone else's work and claiming it for your own, hey.
And again, if we're talking legality, then as long as the 3PPs skirt that thin line between 'outright rip-off' and 'just different enough', they're in the clear. If we're going beyond legality and into the somewhat more complex realm of moral integrity, then as mentioned your righteous ire is just as applicable to HasTakTom themselves and your defense of them while condemning 3PPs is a tad hypocritical.

Again, it makes more sense without replacing what I actually wrote with a bunch of clumsy strawman argument(s).

[dirge]

Guys can we please keep the language G-rated? Thanks (:

[Gouki]

Not at all. If you don't like/want 'em, by all means don't buy 'em. But that doesn't mean you're entitled (and a sense of entitlement is exactly what it is) to condemn those of us who do choose to partake of them without our having the right of reply.

Oh, I don't mean that people shouldn't enjoy them. Do! Absolutely do! I just meant for me (and was probably not clear) that most of them are dog ugly, to me. There are a few where I've definitely gone to get (like Warbot Defender before Generations Springer was released), and it was just the the price that turned me off. And yeah, I guess the the way that a lot of fans go around colours my perception a bit. Having seen some really bizarre arguments to justify it all, whereas I guess I also don't have the G1 love that a lot of people do. I grew up with G1 yeah, but outside of a handful toys, about fifteen season 2 episodes and TF:TM, I was not exposed to much of it so I don't see salivate at the thought of a whole bunch of third party companies doing the same few gestalts and popular characters over and over (and then when they go out on a limb, things like the recent Not!Chromedome for example, just doesn't seem to work out the best) and make Hasbro and TT out to be villains for not doing it themselves. I mean, sure people want their Masterpiece scaled Shockwave (some of them look really nice), but do we really need third party Soundwaves? Starscreams? Is anyone crying out for them?

Sometimes it really feels like there's two Transformers fandoms. The general fandom, and this place, which is reasonable and has it's head screwed on right.

You're just as free to share your opinion and/or to vote with your wallet as anyone else - but that cuts both ways.You mean, like this?
The market for high-end TFs is by definition there, or else 3PPs wouldn't exist.There's a slight difference between creating something yourself and buying up someone else's work and claiming it for your own, hey.

Harmony Gold is company that seemingly runs on crazy defending a license that they won't let lapse cause they've got nothing else at all. The license for the original toy was all gotten on the up and up, and it's referencing that.

The Masterpieces are a little different, being aimed at collectors, but not, if you get what I mean? Since the increase in the lines output and the change in scale, it seems less like "high end collectors" and more "fans of the G1 cartoon but not much else, here have some toys that look like what you remember". They've been made a little less "high end" so to speak. I'm not sure I'm actually articulating this bit very well at all.

What sort of production runs do the third party products have, by the way? I mean, if they're not exactly large runs I really don't see that that proves the high-end collectors market is this gold mine waiting to be tapped.

And again, if we're talking legality, then as long as the 3PPs skirt that thin line between 'outright rip-off' and 'just different enough', they're in the clear. If we're going beyond legality and into the somewhat more complex realm of moral integrity, then as mentioned your righteous ire is just as applicable to HasTakTom themselves and your defense of them while condemning 3PPs is a tad hypocritical.

Again, it makes more sense without replacing what I actually wrote with a bunch of clumsy strawman argument(s).

As I said, my perceptions of the third party products might also be coloured by some downright bizarre comments, arguments and actions I've seen from other Transformers communities.

Hasbro and TT do plenty of dodgy things. Definitely. Cars are a blind spot to me, so you got me there. I didn't see "Lamborghini just different enough to avoid licencing issues" I see "red sports car". So yeah, until I read that I wouldn't have had a clue. But yeah that is dodgy, and unfortunate. I'm actually surprised that they wouldn't just get actual licenses for non-movie stuff thrown in with the movie stuff, but again, cars are not my thing, so for all I know the licensing for the movies prevented this because of the companies involved or something.

If these designers and all are so talented, though, if the products are so good, why don't they make a splash with original designs? Or the interest really does end with the character, which then does make it seem more like it's less about the product and more of an "I want it now so I must have it now" mentality. I mean, if they're sound designs and productions they should live or die based on existing fictions from the 80's should they? Plus, with the aesthetic being often unpleasing, I think some of that stems from thinking some of the moulds created would just be better off being completely original, and the displeasure in my (rather crazy) mind just comes from some of them looking, I don't know, forced, more than anything.

[kup]

Oh, I don't mean that people shouldn't enjoy them. Do! Absolutely do! I just meant for me (and was probably not clear) that most of them are dog ugly, to me.

If you don't like them, that's fair enough. Just don't act as if "they are dog ugly" just because you don't like them. This is specially so when you are clearly in a minority.

I was not exposed to much of it so I don't see salivate at the thought of a whole bunch of third party companies doing the same few gestalts and popular characters over and over (and then when they go out on a limb, things like the recent Not!Chromedome for example, just doesn't seem to work out the best) and make Hasbro and TT out to be villains for not doing it themselves. I mean, sure people want their Masterpiece scaled Shockwave (some of them look really nice), but do we really need third party Soundwaves? Starscreams? Is anyone crying out for them?

No single 3rd party is doing "the same few gestalts" over and over again. What we have seen however is different companies producing their own rendition of Predaking which I will admit is a bit strange but gives consumers the chance to choose the best one of their liking. There are also plenty of other Gestalts being produced like Menasor and Computron plus upgrades to some of Hasrbro's design failures like FOC Bruticus.

I have no idea what you mean about Chromedome. That turned out to be a fantastic toy with innovative transformation engineering.

When it comes to MPs, you are clearly misinformed. The 3rd party Soundwave got cancelled the moment that Tomy announced the official one. The only MP Strarscreams that I am aware of is the Igear knock off from some years ago. Other Starscreams have been unique toy renditions of the character (HOS, F-22).

Sometimes it really feels like there's two Transformers fandoms. The general fandom, and this place, which is reasonable and has it's head screwed on right.

The US fan boards can be very strange. If you are only getting 'fan views' from them, don't expect to get anything defined or straight forward. Everyone just shoots anything.

Harmony Gold is company that seemingly runs on crazy defending a license that they won't let lapse cause they've got nothing else at all. The license for the original toy was all gotten on the up and up, and it's referencing that.

That is very true but it doesn't change that Hasbro did use the likeness of a Valkyrie on their 'retooled' Skystriker. I know the attempt was to make the Joe vehicle as close to G1 Jetfire as possible but they did not think of what G1 Jetfire actually is.

The Masterpieces are a little different, being aimed at collectors, but not, if you get what I mean? Since the increase in the lines output and the change in scale, it seems less like "high end collectors" and more "fans of the G1 cartoon but not much else, here have some toys that look like what you remember". They've been made a little less "high end" so to speak. I'm not sure I'm actually articulating this bit very well at all.

3rd parties have proven that there is a considerable collector market out there. Enough to sustain companies that produce competing products such as the two Devastators and now three Predakings. Sorry but saying that 'there isn't a large enough market' is just obsolete nonsense. The way the 3rd parties have industrialized and grown so quickly from tapping into this neglected and largely untapped market proves otherwise.

What sort of production runs do the third party products have, by the way? I mean, if they're not exactly large runs I really don't see that that proves the high-end collectors market is this gold mine waiting to be tapped.

We don't really know but it is certainly in the thousands. They are also flexible enough to do second and even third runs if they cannot meet demand. Yes, it is a large 'collector' market.

As I said, my perceptions of the third party products might also be coloured by some downright bizarre comments, arguments and actions I've seen from other Transformers communities.

It is always wise to judge the source of the information before you take in the information itself.

Hasbro and TT do plenty of dodgy things. Definitely. Cars are a blind spot to me, so you got me there. I didn't see "Lamborghini just different enough to avoid licencing issues" I see "red sports car". So yeah, until I read that I wouldn't have had a clue. But yeah that is dodgy, and unfortunate. I'm actually surprised that they wouldn't just get actual licenses for non-movie stuff thrown in with the movie stuff, but again, cars are not my thing, so for all I know the licensing for the movies prevented this because of the companies involved or something.

You not recognizing Hasbro/Tomy's dodgy moves doesn't mean they are not doing it. The tricks they have done with the cars it's spot on the same tricks 3rd parties use to get around copyright. A 'pot calls the kettle black' argument. However if you want to argue that there is intellectual property infringement and the 3rd parties are taking advantage of Hasbro's properties to profit themselves, then you would have a far better argument that is difficult to deny.

If these designers and all are so talented, though, if the products are so good, why don't they make a splash with original designs? Or the interest really does end with the character, which then does make it seem more like it's less about the product and more of an "I want it now so I must have it now" mentality. I mean, if they're sound designs and productions they should live or die based on existing fictions from the 80's should they? Plus, with the aesthetic being often unpleasing, I think some of that stems from thinking some of the moulds created would just be better off being completely original, and the displeasure in my (rather crazy) mind just comes from some of them looking, I don't know, forced, more than anything.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. You want 3rd parties to just do strictly G1 characters? It doesn't work that way plus that's what Masterpiece is for.

If you don't like the 3rd party designs, that's your issue and you are in a minority. However don't act as if that is the absolute truth as given several of your comments show you are clearly misinformed. Several 3rd parties are not really attempting to do 'geewunn' at all and are moving towards their own unique interpretations or basing them on contemporary popular fiction.

There have been 3rd parties that do 'articulated G1' toys like one of the Predakings on offer but they are normally less popular than the fully modernized interpretations.

[Gouki]

If you don't like them, that's fair enough. Just don't act as if "they are dog ugly" just because you don't like them. This is specially so when you are clearly in a minority.

TO ME. Generally, a lot of the designs are dog ugly. TO ME. I PERSONALLY find them mostly unappealing aesthetically. ME. MY EYES. There are the occasional design that I think is fantastic and would love to see Mass produced so everyone could own it, but that is rare. TO ME. Do you want me to clarify that I'm talking exclusively ABOUT MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT some more? Because it seems like you're not grasping I'm talking about my opinion on designs.

And it was at this point, I have realised that I can't say anything bad about third parties. Or I'm a shill for Hasbro or TT. Or I'm an idiot. So whatever, you guys like them, that's awesome. I'm glad you do.

But I don't. And just because I'm in the minority doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid. Or I guess it does because that's the way things work in Fandom.