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Thread: The Random Transformers Thoughts Thread

  1. #821
    FatalityPitt Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyJazz View Post
    ... is the polar opposite of what makes Transformers great.

    If people have trouble seeing "sci-fi vehicle" when looking at Blurr's alt-mode they probably have a limited imagination and aren't the target audience for an action figure.
    I’ll agree to disagree. When rating a Transformer, a lot of collectors think in terms of “Do I like this toy, and will like-minded collectors like it too?” This is all well and good. It’s important for Hasbro/Takara to keep its existing fan-base happy. However when I rate a Generations Transformer, questions that come to my mind include “What would the lay-person (or lay-child) think of Transformers after experiencing this toy? Will he/she want another Transformer after this one? Is the toy good enough to turn a non-fan with no prior Transformers knowledge into a fan?” If this lay-person/non-fan wants another Transformer, or at least wants to explore the hobby after playing with the Transformer; then the Transformer is a successful one because it’s created a potential new customer for the franchise.

    An example of a successful Transformer - Last year, I attended the birthday party of a soon-to-be 11 year-old friend of the family. The kid was a Ninja Turtles fan who didn’t show much knowledge or interest in Transformers, but I decided to give him a TR Hardhead anyway – something different from what he normally gets. Several weeks after the party, I met the family again, and the boy told me he liked Hardhead because he looked cool and transforming him was fun. He also showed me his collection of ‘head-guys’ which his mum recently bought (it was just TR Loudmouth, Nightbeat, etc). To me TR Hardhead is the perfect example of a successful Transformer, because without the kid knowing who the character was, it still won the kid over with its design and fun features, and it made him a fan.

    But now, imagine what would have happened if I gave him my MoC RTS Perceptor instead. From the perspective of you and I, RTS Perceptor is good because it looks like G1 Perceptor, and he transforms into a convincing model of a half-track. Me personally, even though he’s a figure of a character I’ve liked since childhood, I didn’t enjoy the toy. The Transformation was too complicated and frustrating. Perhaps I lack a certain intelligence, but the first 2-3 times I transformed it, it took me 15-20 minutes just trying to get him into vehicle mode. If a 24 year-old university-educated business analyst with experience with Transformers struggled with this toy, what chance would a regular 10-year old kid have? I don’t think RTS Perceptor would impress the average 10 year-old. While it has its good qualities, I wouldn’t call it successful.

    You might now be thinking “OK, what about Masterpieces? They’re not figures of universally recognizable characters, and the Transformations can be super-complex; yet they’re pretty successful.” That’s because Masterpieces are for a very specific market. One of the differences between Generations Deluxe figures and Masterpieces is that one line is sold at general retail stores like Kmart, Target, etc; while the other is a niche item that’s sold at specialty stores. The Transformers Masterpiece line is not mainstream. Masterpieces are not for everyone, but it does a good job of catering to it’s intended audience. Generations Deluxes on the other hand are more accessible to non-fans, and ideally, the toy should be good enough to attract even a non-fan whether they are buying the toy for themselves, or as a gift for someone else.

    From a certain perspective, the marketing and design team for the Masterpiece line have it easier, because they’re catering to people who are ALREADY fans; whereas the Generations line has to appeal to not just existing fans, but also prospective fans – The sort of person wandering the Target toy aisle, who’s heard of Transformers but hasn’t held one, but is curious about them.

    To sum up the above as elegantly possible; for a Generations Transformer to be “successful”, it needs to appeal to not just existing fans, but also prospective ones with limited knowledge of Transformers. The added features in Titans Return (cockpits and pilots that convert into heads) don’t contradict this goal, but support it.


    Quote Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat View Post
    But they don't really need cockpits do they? Hardly seems necessary when there were no humans to pilot them (to begin with). I guess you have the possibility of humanoid aliens or non-transforming robots/drones piloting them. But probably, Headmasters came about from a need to reconcile why the Cybertron modes had cockpits to begin with (and cause they's cool ). From that point of view i can agree that Cybertron modes benefit most from having a Headmaster and in the case of toys, functional, scaled cockpit for them.
    Yeah, because if you take G1 Scourge's alt-mode for example, to an 'uneducated' eye; it might look like a flying blue bath tub, or some kind of 'boat'. But when you add the cockpit and pilot, then it becomes apparent that it's meant to be a spaceship.

    My memory is a bit foggy, but I remember reading articles about fans back in the 1980's complaining about the outlandish alien-like vehicle modes, etc. I think that might be because they didn't look like conventional vehicles at the time, nor did they have drivers/pilots to justify the notion that they're suppose to be vehicles.

  2. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat View Post
    Why do the Transformers transform at all if not for means of stealth or transport? Arguably they're still in disguise on Cybertron, if looked at from the perspective of the opposing faction, who'd be familiar with Cybertronian vehicles. Just from your puny fleshling perspective it can't be a disguise if you never knew what it was being disguised as!
    Cybertronian modes were often more for easier movement or other practical functions like transport, combat, entertainment etc. As Trailbreaker once said, "Besides, it sure beats walking." But sometimes they were for disguise too, such as Soundwave's street lamp mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat View Post
    But they don't really need cockpits do they? Hardly seems necessary when there were no humans to pilot them (to begin with).
    Although never explicitly stated, the G1 cartoon stated that the Transformers were made by the Quintessons, so it's possible that cockpits were installed for the benefits of their tentacled masters and possibly other races that they might have sold the Transformers off to. Other continuities on the other hand have never explained this anomaly. The Dreamwave Comics looked like they were actually going to explain this, but unfortunately the company went under and the comics were cancelled before this story could be told.

    It's one of those weird anomalies, but then again, there's no real reason why the Transformers should have human-like bodies, faces, noses, mouths etc. either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellico View Post
    I am going to throw an idea out I was thinking about last night as to why the Diaclone stuff specifically was considered better than later years.

    They came with cockpits.
    I'd actually say that it was due to having more instantly recognisable alt modes - because remember that a lot of early G1 TFs didn't have cockpits too (e.g. Megatron, Cassettes, Constructicons etc.), and in the case of Ironhide and Ratchet, their cockpits probably worked against them (as they were in lieu of actual heads). But when you look at these alt modes, you know exactly what they're meant to be since they were based on real life things. The Middle G1 Years saw alt modes shift more towards fantasy-based modes and this is when we saw toys losing popularity as the alt modes were less instantly recognisable to consumers.

    Scourge is a good example of this. For ages I never knew that he was meant to be an aircraft, I honestly thought that he was a boat. It wasn't until TFTM hit cinemas and I watched the movie and saw him flying that I realised that he was an aircraft. Scourge was also the very last of the Decepticon Jets that I got - never bothered buying him from shops but later got it free from a friend who "grew out" of Transformers.

    Other examples:

    + BEAST WARS vs BEAST MACHINES
    We all know that Beast Wars was a huge success while Beast Machines bombed. Boy were those BM toys really bad shelfwarmers! And I think one reason for this was the less recognisable looking alt modes. Check this out:
    MISB Optimus Primal
    MISB TM Optimus Primal
    MISB Optimal Optimus
    ...vs...
    MOSC Optimus Primal
    Take a close look at the text on that last toy just below the character's name. That's right, it says "Gorilla." By BM the alt modes had become so weird looking that Hasbro felt the need to tell us what the hell these things were by explicitly printing it on the front of the packaging!
    Pro Tip: If a toy's alt mode looks so obscure that you need to tell people what they are then it's probably not a great looking alt mode!

    And Optimus Primal was one of the better BM toys - we had figures like Silverbolt and Sky Shadow etc. -- who knows what they're meant to be! And the Vehicons all had fantasy-based vehicle modes, much like Middle G1, and they didn't do much better than their Maximal counterparts. BM Mirage even has an open driver's compartment and still pegwarmed.

    And what was the first line of Post-BW TFs that sold like hotcakes? Car Robot/Robots In Disguise of course. And none of them had cockpits ('cept for Mach Alert) - but they were all immediately recognisable licensed alt modes! And those toys sold REALLY well. Remember how they were flying off shelves months before the TV show even started airing? And of course, Takara have admitted that Car Robot became the inspiration for Binaltech and Masterpiece, so their legacy still lives on in the current MP line (and CHUGUR too, really - it's the same concept as CR only with G1 characters).

    Look at how well CHUGUR's been selling. Most of these toys don't have cockpits or pilots, and it's not as if CHUGUR's been doing really poorly before Titans Return came along. Classics, Universe, Generations, Reveal the Shield, Combiner Wars etc. - these lines were all highly popular with fans and sold pretty well. They have immediately recognisable alt modes, even if they're not based on licensed vehicles. Take Classics Bumblebee for example - it's clearly a hatchback. The make or model is irrelevant, you know that this is a compact car.

    Quote Originally Posted by FatalityPitt View Post
    I don’t think RTS Perceptor would impress the average 10 year-old. While it has its good qualities, I wouldn’t call it successful.
    But that toy sold really well! I had trouble finding it in stores, and when I finally did mine was defective and I had to hunt for a replacement to exchange it with. And I don't recall this toy exactly being a pegwarmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by FatalityPitt View Post
    You might now be thinking “OK, what about Masterpieces? They’re not figures of universally recognizable characters, and the Transformations can be super-complex; yet they’re pretty successful.” That’s because Masterpieces are for a very specific market. One of the differences between Generations Deluxe figures and Masterpieces is that one line is sold at general retail stores like Kmart, Target, etc; while the other is a niche item that’s sold at specialty stores. The Transformers Masterpiece line is not mainstream. Masterpieces are not for everyone, but it does a good job of catering to it’s intended audience.
    1/ MPs are sold in regular stores in Japan.
    2/ Some of them are also shelfwarming, e.g. Road Rage, Tracks, Wheeljack, Ironhide, Ratchet, Delta Magnus, Convoy, Inferno etc. - I found all of these toys in several stores during my recent trip to Japan.

    But as you said, MP is a highly specialised line so it's not something that I would compare with a mainstream TF line like CHUGUR.

    Quote Originally Posted by FatalityPitt View Post
    Yeah, because if you take G1 Scourge's alt-mode for example, to an 'uneducated' eye; it might look like a flying blue bath tub, or some kind of 'boat'. But when you add the cockpit and pilot, then it becomes apparent that it's meant to be a spaceship.
    Have you read the TR Scourge review thread lately? Boat jokes ahoy!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FatalityPitt View Post
    My memory is a bit foggy, but I remember reading articles about fans back in the 1980's complaining about the outlandish alien-like vehicle modes, etc. I think that might be because they didn't look like conventional vehicles at the time, nor did they have drivers/pilots to justify the notion that they're suppose to be vehicles.
    You don't need articles to confirm that, just look at toy sales and its impact on the brand. Transformers started shifting towards fantasy modes in 1986 and increased this trend throughout the 80s. In 1987 toy sales had dropped so badly that Hasbro cancelled the US G1 cartoon series after only a 3 episode pilot (The Rebirth). Toy sales in Japan lasted a few years longer but again, by the turn of the decade toy sales there too had dropped so low that the Japanese series was cancelled in 1990 with a 1 episode pilot (Zone). And we know that the US comics were cancelled in 1991 as was the G1 North American toy line, with the UK comics cancelled a year later. Then a few months after that G1 died and was replaced with G2.

    The realistic looking beast modes in BW boosted Transformers and made it the 3rd best selling toy line by 1997 although there was a lull during BM only to enjoy great success again with CR/RiD. So typically we see the Transformers brand at its stronger points when the toys are based on recognisable alt modes and its lower points when the toys move away from this.

    The same works with adults such as with MPs. MP Star Sabre has the most fantasy-based alt mode and enjoyed limited popularity with fans, yet other MPs have enjoyed far greater success. Or heck, look at Bayformers - and I'll use Megatron as an example. TF1 and ROTF Megatron didn't enjoy as much popularity and their toys were bad shelfwarmers and I think part of the lack of appeal was a recognisable alt mode. TF1 Megatron transformed into a ... I dunno... thing with... wings. ROTF Megatron transformed into a... uh... lump with treads? Looking at the screen model doesn't help much. They're not immediately recognisable modes. Ejector sold better and he was a freakin' toaster! Or how awesome were the twins as an ice cream truck! DOTM Megatron AoE Galvatron have sold better because they're recognisable trucks. Megatron doesn't have to be a truck, but he just needs to be something that people can recognise.

    TLK Megatron transforms into a fantasy jet, but it's one with distinctively Earthen elements to it - distinctive fixed wings, a cockpit etc. - this is a far cry from his TF1 jet mode. And I suspect that this may have been done to help make the toy more marketable.

  3. #823
    FatalityPitt Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    But that toy sold really well! I had trouble finding it in stores, and when I finally did mine was defective and I had to hunt for a replacement to exchange it with. And I don't recall this toy exactly being a pegwarmer.
    I won't argue for the sake of arguing, but I'll share a thought:

    According to the packaging, the recommended age for RTS Perceptor was age 5+. If you gave that toy to a 7 year-old; what would his/her reaction be after attempting to transform it, and will he/she want another Transformer after that?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    But as you said, MP is a highly specialised line so it's not something that I would compare with a mainstream TF line like CHUGUR.
    The point I was trying to make is that I think MPs are mainly for "experts" (veteran fans like yourself), while "CHUGUR" is meant to appeal to not just experts, but attract new or casual fans; so the two lines have differing objectives. I wasn't comparing the quality of the two lines. If anything, I was differentiating them.

    (EDIT: )

    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post

    The same works with adults such as with MPs. MP Star Sabre has the most fantasy-based alt mode and enjoyed limited popularity with fans, yet other MPs have enjoyed far greater success. Or heck, look at Bayformers - and I'll use Megatron as an example. TF1 and ROTF Megatron didn't enjoy as much popularity and their toys were bad shelfwarmers and I think part of the lack of appeal was a recognisable alt mode. TF1 Megatron transformed into a ... I dunno... thing with... wings. ROTF Megatron transformed into a... uh... lump with treads? Looking at the screen model doesn't help much. They're not immediately recognisable modes. Ejector sold better and he was a freakin' toaster! Or how awesome were the twins as an ice cream truck! DOTM Megatron AoE Galvatron have sold better because they're recognisable trucks. Megatron doesn't have to be a truck, but he just needs to be something that people can recognise.

    TLK Megatron transforms into a fantasy jet, but it's one with distinctively Earthen elements to it - distinctive fixed wings, a cockpit etc. - this is a far cry from his TF1 jet mode. And I suspect that this may have been done to help make the toy more marketable.
    Yes, this was the point I was trying to make earlier with the cockpits. Thank you!

    If they're going to make a Transformer that becomes a sci-fi/fantasy vehicle, they're going to have to work something extra into the design that says "Hi, I may not look like it, but I'm actually a car/jet/tank". I think a cockpit and pilot does a good job of delivering that message.
    Last edited by FatalityPitt; 2nd June 2017 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Adding on points.

  4. #824
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    For the first time in many many years I'm going to have to curtail my TF spending. Going to concentrate on the TR line with a smidge of the others.

    To this end I'm having my 39.5 before we move as few will travel the giant distance from VIC for my 40th in Nov. I've said in my invite 'Presents are NOT required (though toys from TF5: TLK will be grudgingly yet graciously accepted)

    Hopefully I might get a few of that toy line this way

  5. #825
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    Firstly, I'd like to apologise to Fatality Pit for my quiestion. I had no idea it would turn out like this...

    Quote Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat View Post
    Why do the Transformers transform at all if not for means of stealth or transport? Arguably they're still in disguise on Cybertron, if looked at from the perspective of the opposing faction, who'd be familiar with Cybertronian vehicles. Just from your puny fleshling perspective it can't be a disguise if you never knew what it was being disguised as!
    Lets face it, Transformers are made for humans, not for other Transformers as they are just toys. Your puny fleshling comment is not enough to get me riled up

    In a way, Headmasters are just another type of Combiner toy. Whats cooler than a robot that changes into a vehicle? A robot that changes into a vehicle and combines with another robot.

    Let's have a look at Star saber as an example.

    A toy made with robot mode in mind. Sure, his robot mode is super cool. But you gotta admit that his vehicle modes is kind of naff and falls into the "space vehicle" category. Yuki, combining with saber, who then becomes star saber manages to elevate the toy somewhat. Imagine if there was no brain master gimmick in him. I think he'd suck somewhat to be honest as hed just be a big chunky robot that looks a LOT like a gundam figure and transforms into a flat white "thing".
    just as a quick side note, I'd sure love animated Megatron's cybertron mode to have had a cockpit. At least then I'd know which was supposed to be the front

    I said before I like Headmasters and I do. Gok stated that he doesn't like previously not-headmaster toys being HMs now. However, the current trend of HM toys is just another line isn't it?
    Blurr is a HM toy
    In Armada, he was also an Armada toy (and pretty crap too).
    All the toys of the same line have the line-wide gimmick don't they?

    The line will end eventually and we'll move onto the next gimmick line. I very much doubt the Legends/TR line will be the final line of G1 referencing toys by any means.

    One positive aspect of the HM figures though, is that they don't have to be designed with some stupid head revealing gimmick, or have to make room somewhere for the head to hide in vehicle mode.

    Anyway, that's my 2 yen. Whan all the HM stuff ends, I know I'll be happy with all my little heady robots. In a way, I think they've been very clever with the way it's been done on some characters. Like Trypticon for example, who isn't a headmaster himself, but his little chest car thing is the headmaster, which has a backup of Trypticon's spark in it. Very clever.

  6. #826
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    Lol

  7. #827
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    As I said, I don't dislike the Headmaster gimmick. It's fairly non-interfering, so worse case scenario if you really don't like it just ignore it. The Titan Master becomes nothing more than a detachable transforming accessory. It doesn't really compromise the toy unlike Armada's Powerlinx gimmicks which absolutely did compromise design and engineering, thus giving rise to the expression, "wHy My 5h0ULd3r5 hUr7?" #jAaM Even Hasbro made fun of this with CHUGUR Hot Shot's "JAAM" number plate. The worst of TR is still better than the best of Armada.


  8. #828
    FatalityPitt Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuwan Convoy View Post
    Firstly, I'd like to apologise to Fatality Pit for my quiestion. I had no idea it would turn out like this...
    Nah, no need for apologies

    If anything, I brought it on myself. TBH, I didn't even notice your initial comment. The thought popped in my head when I was mucking around with Topspin and wondered, "would it really be better off without the Titanmaster gimmick? No!" Then I went to voice my opinion. Unfortunately I did a terrible job expressing my thoughts and ended up in a debate of sorts.

    I agree completely about Star Saber's alt-mode and brainmaster gimmick. The other nice thing about having a small figurine to display next to a fantasy alt-mode, is that it tells the beholder "people are suppose to fit in that, and the figurine represents the average-sized humanoid". It creates a sense of scale. Also, the fact that the figurine can integrate into the robot-mode by forming the head/gun/what-have-you, is pretty economical. Just my 2 cents.

  9. #829
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    RE: alt modes x robots in disguise

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    Sitting at Changi Airport and decide to wander into the toy stores...spot MP Inferno, Ironhide, Ratchet and Red Alert+. Just seems kinda random to spot these toys at an airport.

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