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Thread: The TF Wiki

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFN View Post
    On the subject of tone, I don't think Transformers is not really a topic deserving of scholarly study and contemplation. It's a toyline for kids and cartoons and comics to promote the toys or the brand, and we treat it as such. Thus we then have fun with our hobby and not take it too seriously.
    If the "powers that be" who run the TF wikia decide to go that way, that's up to them. I do think it's a little _too_ lighthearted, but I'm not worried about it. I personally rarely visit the wikia, because I find the lightheartedness gets in the way of actual information (which is what I'd visit for).

    For me - and probably others - the tone devalues it as a source of information. I have no interest in the wikia as a result, but for those such as yourself who do, it might be something worse considering. Which is I guess the point of this thread - allowing you to better understand the reasons why some transfans disregard the project, and possibly tweaking some aspects to reach a wider audience


    Eagerly waiting for Masterpiece Meister

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydisc View Post
    Just a reminder to everyone that we are talking about toys, not medical dissertations. Gosh knows I need to remind myself at times
    I'm performing surgery tonight on my Hasbro Powerglide I take my surgical duties very seriously.


    As for Wiki, I rarely if ever visit it. I don't really care either way b/c as the point has been more eloquently made, this isn't a topic that needs to be recorded in a scholarly manner. It's TFs and as much as I love them, I don't need feel the crying urge to be a completely and utterly informed about them to be a true fan.

    The disdain of the Wiki is unwarranted imo. They as others have pointed out have committed time and effort to building this. Time and effort that none of us would otherwise have put in. So to sit there smug and say its all in my head or its just not good enough is self indulgent. If these guys were getting paid to do it or making a profession out of it, I'd be more harsh but they aren't so they are perfectly entitled to do whatever they want. They'll be judged on it by the fandom.

    The one concern I do have that others has raised is where edits have been made but not accepted and often ignored by the editors w/out any justification. I would hope that that's not the case b/c I think it's vital to something like Wiki to accept the contributions of all and to be able to justify why it goes one way and not another. Freedom of speech is a vital pillar in any aspect of life - especially where one professes to be an authoritative repository of knowledge.
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  3. #33
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    I should point out Wikia and the TF Wiki are two seperate entities. The majority of the contributors (99% of the content writers) left Wikia to form TF Wiki, and we brought all of the content along with us in protest to Wikia's decision to put advertisements inside the articles and other disagreements.

    Our fight with Wikia was reported in The Guardian in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by FFN View Post
    On the subject of tone, I don't think Transformers is not really a topic deserving of scholarly study and contemplation.
    Erm, I think I put that "not" there by accident, but you all seem to get the gist.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Ah, so much to choose from. I'll just use one example - the first time I once edited the page on KISS Play to remove all the bias and suggestions of it being perverted etc. I also removed another section which lacked citation (I think it was the controversy part - note that there is no controversy over KISS Play with Transfans in Japan). I left a message explaining that I was just removing the bias out of the article. My edits were quickly undone with a message telling me not to vandalise the page.

    IMO my edit was valid and justified. KISS Play being perverted is a matter of personal opinion, not fact. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree or disagree with that sentiment... that's not the issue. It is really the lack of neutral voice, and in this case, painting KISS Play to be something that it is arguably not (and as Kyle said, is just downright confusing). Forget irreverant, the tone of that page is downright insulting IMO.
    You're right, the tone of Kiss Players' articles are biased and opinionated, but as I said above, we don't really care about a neutral voice, nor do we purport to represent ourselves as anything vaguely official. We are a fan site, and for Kiss Players, that's what the majority of contributors thinks of it.

    Another example, Titanium Series. I editted the page more than once to include Metric specifications alongside the USC measures, e.g.: 6-inch (15cm). I did not delete the USC measurements at all - I left them in tact but I just also included metric specifications for the sake of non-Americans. Each time I did this they were deleted. I also included metric conversions for other measures, like the height and dimensions of movie Optimus Prime and Megatron... again, I did not delete the USC measures, I merely included the metric conversion. Again, the metric conversions were deleted. In wikipedia measures always appear in both USC and Metric. I have no idea why TFwiki staff are opposed to this. I thought this was the world wide web (and metric is the international standard for weights and measures). Again, this was a factual edit which was undone (why can't we state Optimus Prime's height in feet and metres or his volume in cubic feet and cubic metres?).
    I assume it comes down to the fact that since it's an American wiki and Hasbro usually refer to the toys in American imperial measurements, we go by that system only for better reference to official materials. You could have remarked on a Discussion page somewhere, possibly community discussion, about making such additions.

    But to the TFwiki staff's credit there has been some edits I've done which haven't been undone - and that's mostly where I've corrected "European" to "European & Australasian" when it comes to so-called European Transformers in G1. Under the entry for European Transformers I also editted it to include Australia and New Zealand and I think that's been untouched too. But there are more pages in TFwiki - individual entries on many European/Australasian Transformers which only state that they are "European".

    I've given up on editting TFwiki so I'm not going through correcting them all. (-_-)
    Euro for easy reference due to it being the largest market for those specific toys. As I recall, Hasbro Australia was under the dominion of Hasbro UK back then.

    That doesn't change the fact that the captions themselves are not descriptive. People who are browsing through the page want information to be immediately accessible - they shouldn't have to click on the images to find out what they are. Also, I haven't noticed any text telling people that they need to click on images to read their descriptions... so unless people are psychic, they're not going to access those descriptions unless they incidentally click on the image to view it at higher resolution.

    It should be the other way around - the pages should have descriptions of the images and the humorous comments should appear when you click on it.
    Caption jokes are indeed polarising and can indeed be only funny to us (and sometimes not even all of us), but it's the right of the image uploader to make the caption, unless it's rude or a really bad joke. I myself rarely do captions myself.

    In my experience, the most visitors find them amusing and can spur them to click on the image to see clearly what the joke was referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by springah View Post
    totally agree with Gok. it used to confuse me. too many in-jokes. also un-funny ones.

    eg, http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Golden_Disk_(disambiguation)

    "Don't leave them alone together. They multiply."

    ... what?
    A joke, and a fairly obvious one if you read the disambiguation page's contents.

    Originally there were only two Golden Disks in Beast Wars. But then Dreamwave started crapping out other Golden Disks to jump on the bandwagon of golden-disk shaped macguffins, except those disks, in contrast to Beast Wars, had no real meaning and no real function other than "HEY, HOMAGE!"

    Quote Originally Posted by STL View Post
    Freedom of speech is a vital pillar in any aspect of life - especially where one professes to be an authoritative repository of knowledge.
    I think you guys think we go around acting as though we're the end-all and be-all TF info source. To my knowledge, we don't do that.
    http://www.tfwiki.net, the Transformers Wiki - Serious intellectual discussion about transforming space robots.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFN View Post
    I assume it comes down to the fact that since it's an American wiki and Hasbro usually refer to the toys in American imperial measurements, we go by that system only for better reference to official materials. You could have remarked on a Discussion page somewhere, possibly community discussion, about making such additions.
    I support the wiki and yourself on everything you've said but this. If Gok's account of the story is accurate (we're yet to truly hear the other side or another detailed account - edit history?), I think that was a bad move.

  5. #35
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    i love Tf wiki

    its bloody hilarious, the way its written and the jokes etc are of very high class wit.

    The wheelie entry is also a good point as to why i enjoy it, the whole entry is in ryme

    I agree that they leave out some facts etc and dont credit some of there sources. Keep in mind, its a wiki any one on the net can change and distort facts. If you want something factual, make yer own page with stuff like that. And then you can have a forum like this so fans can discuss the stuff.

    Other then that its good, yeah yeah, i know, anyone can edit it. But really, you go to TF wiki expecting this kind of thing, so there are some diehards who edit your corrections/posts etc. Its Tf wiki, sure its biased etc, but that is what you expect from tf wiki.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFN
    You're right, the tone of Kiss Players' articles are biased and opinionated, but as I said above, we don't really care about a neutral voice, nor do we purport to represent ourselves as anything vaguely official. We are a fan site, and for Kiss Players, that's what the majority of contributors thinks of it.
    Hence why TFwiki reads more like a blog than an actual factual encyclopaedic resource (and there are fans who regard TFwiki as a bible, even if that's not the intention of its contributors. Perhaps there needs to be a disclaimer on the main page?)

    Quote Originally Posted by FFN
    I assume it comes down to the fact that since it's an American wiki and Hasbro usually refer to the toys in American imperial measurements, we go by that system only for better reference to official materials. You could have remarked on a Discussion page somewhere, possibly community discussion, about making such additions.
    Considering that the toys are co-designed in Japan and manufactured in China, I imagine that a lot of official material would be in metric units too. And as I said, I was never advocating for the removal of United States Customary (USC) measures, merely for the inclusion of metric. The internet is the world wide web and your audience is an international one. Hence why other wikis have both USC and metric units. Star Wars and Halo are both franchises which originate from the US (and are more predominantly American than Transformers since TFs is half Japanese) yet Star Wars and Halo wikias use both USC and metric weights and measures. I can understand wanting to include USC for the benefit of Americans, but I don't see why metric units need to be excluded (as they would be useful for non-Americans).

    Quote Originally Posted by FFN
    Euro for easy reference due to it being the largest market for those specific toys. As I recall, Hasbro Australia was under the dominion of Hasbro UK back then.
    I don't deny that, but saying that the "Euro" Transformers are exclusively European is as incorrect as say claiming that Transformers are exclusively creations of Takara. Hasbro Australia was certainly receiving toys from Hasbro UK - we sometimes get stuff from the UK and other times from the US... other times from neither. But the fact is that Australia and New Zealand are not European nations and many of the so-called European toys that were released in Europe were also released here and in Zippo's land.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFN
    A joke, and a fairly obvious one if you read the disambiguation page's contents.
    Again, you're assuming that people are going to click on that. As you said, the captions can be quite polarising to people who are new to the content and simply browsing the page without clicking on links.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFN
    I think you guys think we go around acting as though we're the end-all and be-all TF info source. To my knowledge, we don't do that.
    As I said, I think there ought to be a disclaimer because people do perceive wikis/wikia as if they're some kind of open-source encyclopaedia (as is the commonly accepted definition of "wiki"). The front page also states "TFWiki is the Transformers knowledge database" which I think some people would interpret as meaning that this site is an authority on the subject matter - hence why a disclaimer would be useful if it is not the intention of its contributors.

    Quote Originally Posted by STL
    The disdain of the Wiki is unwarranted imo. They as others have pointed out have committed time and effort to building this. Time and effort that none of us would otherwise have put in. So to sit there smug and say its all in my head or its just not good enough is self indulgent. If these guys were getting paid to do it or making a profession out of it, I'd be more harsh but they aren't so they are perfectly entitled to do whatever they want. They'll be judged on it by the fandom.
    I would be more than happy to regularly contribute and edit TFwiki if not for the fact that my edits are often undone for no apparent reason (to me anyway). It's a complete waste of my time to try and edit anything on TFwiki if it's just going to be undone most of the time.

    I'm not one of those armchair critics who just looked at it and thought, "Pppfftt! This is crap," - the fact is that I have tried to contribute on several occasions, but my attempts were mostly thwarted. Consequently I have no interest in trying to make any further contributions to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaydisc
    If Gok's account of the story is accurate (we're yet to truly hear the other side or another detailed account - edit history?), I think that was a bad move.
    Yeah, it ought to be in the edit history. I don't have TFwiki account so my edits would just appear to be from an anonymous IP address. But I usually leave a "reason for edit" comment saying something like, "removed bias" or "metric units included" etc.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    As I said, I think there ought to be a disclaimer because people do perceive wikis/wikia as if they're some kind of open-source encyclopaedia (as is the commonly accepted definition of "wiki").
    I think this is completely wrong. You previously posted Wikipedia's definition of Wikipedia, NOT a wiki. A wiki is simply a type of software. Here is Wikipedia's definition of a wiki:

    "A wiki is a page or collection of Web pages designed to enable anyone who accesses it to contribute or modify content, using a simplified markup language. Wikis are often used to create collaborative websites and to power community websites."

    Just because Wikipedia = Wiki does not mean Wiki = Wikipedia.

    The term Wiki, at least by my experience, is much more associated with the concept of collaboration as opposed to being a definitive resource.

    I also don't see why I site needs a disclaimer to describe everything it isn't. Should there be a disclaimer on the home page explaining that the term Transformer is not referring to an apparatus for reducing or increasing the voltage of an alternating current, as that is the truly commonly accepted definition of Transformer.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Yeah, it ought to be in the edit history. I don't have TFwiki account so my edits would just appear to be from an anonymous IP address. But I usually leave a "reason for edit" comment saying something like, "removed bias" or "metric units included" etc.
    This helps explain things. It certainly would explain why you received no explanation for your addendum's removal. How would you be contacted? In my experience, in virtually any online context: wiki edits, blog postings, etc., anonymity immediately discounts any potential quality in the content for many reasons, including its lack of accountability and the inability for it to be followed up.

  8. #38
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    As Jaydisc says, you got your definition of a wiki wrong. We're a collaborative fan site of people who are (generally) like-minded.

    Gok, obviously removing our tone or bias is an justifiable reason for your edits to be reverted without explanation, especially from an anon IP address. It would be seen as vandalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Again, you're assuming that people are going to click on that. As you said, the captions can be quite polarising to people who are new to the content and simply browsing the page without clicking on links.
    What is there to click on? The image with the caption was on the disambig page, which lists the original two golden discs with the four Dreamwave created afterwards (one of which can be taken as a continuity error unless Dreamwave's Beast Wars is a different continuity to cartoon Beast Wars).

    So, it would be pretty bloody easy to see what the joke caption was referring to by the contents of the page the image was contained in.
    http://www.tfwiki.net, the Transformers Wiki - Serious intellectual discussion about transforming space robots.

  9. #39
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    Hey team.

    I started this thread so the Wiki could be discussed in good faith with those that had criticisms being able to air them, and those that enjoy it as is, similarly being able to express themselves.

    I have no wish for this to degenerate into an argument. I think everybody has made their points of view as clear as need be and I thank them all for it.

    If a mod could now lock this thread it would be greatly appreciated, however if the board staff still think the thread has a valid reason for staying open then well...I am not one to argue.

    Thank you again all.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydisc
    Just because Wikipedia = Wiki does not mean Wiki = Wikipedia.
    Fair enough. I thought that "wiki" was an abbreviation for 'wikipedia.'

    Quote Originally Posted by jaydisc
    This helps explain things. It certainly would explain why you received no explanation for your addendum's removal. How would you be contacted? In my experience, in virtually any online context: wiki edits, blog postings, etc., anonymity immediately discounts any potential quality in the content for many reasons, including its lack of accountability and the inability for it to be followed up.
    On the Edit History page people can leave comments for why they edit the page - and in doing so, explain why they've undone certain edits and thus leaving feedback to anonymous contributors.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFN
    Gok, obviously removing our tone or bias is an justifiable reason for your edits to be reverted without explanation, especially from an anon IP address. It would be seen as vandalism.
    So you're saying that TFwiki doesn't accept contributions from anonymous users? Doesn't that kind of defeat the definition of what a wiki is? jaydisc's posted definition of wiki states "A wiki is a page or collection of Web pages designed to enable anyone who accesses it to contribute or modify content" and the front page of TFwiki states "TFWiki is the Transformers knowledge database of 7,638 files that anyone can edit or add to!"

    Just because my edits or contributions are anonymous doesn't mean that they're acts of vandalism. Furthermore, if TFwiki has a policy of rejected anonymous edits, then why are some of my other anonymous edits (e.g.: EU --> EU/AU/NZ) not undone? It seems that my edits are only undone when they conflict with the opinion(s) of someone else, which I think is bad form.

    If someone's edit is a true form of vandalism or is incorrect or not substantiable enough, then sure, I can understand that edit being undone. But I don't think it's fair for edits to be undone if they are factual or attempting to remove someone's personal bias from an article.

    Wikipedia defines Vandalism as:
    "...any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia, which cannot and will not be tolerated. The most common types of vandalism include the addition of obscenities or crude humor, page blanking, or the insertion of nonsense into articles.
    Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is
    not vandalism. Even harmful edits that are not explicitly made in bad faith are not considered vandalism. For example, adding a controversial personal opinion to an article once is not vandalism; reinserting it despite multiple warnings is. Not all vandalism is obvious, nor are all massive or controversial changes vandalism. Careful attention may need to be given to whether changes made are beneficial, detrimental but well-intended, or outright vandalism."

    I can see no notice on TFwiki informing users to create an account in order to gain the privilege of editting pages, and if this is indeed a policy on TFwiki then perhaps it needs to be modified so that only registered users who have logged in are able to edit pages. Wikipedia pages which are prone to frequent vandalism have been locked so that unregistered users cannot edit them (e.g.: Wikipedia's page on Christianity). It's a similar reason as to why message boards like this one only allow registered users to post. So if TFwiki is willing to allow anonymous users to edit pages then they need to consider the validity of their contributions and not reject them based solely on the fact that they're unregistered.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger
    I have no wish for this to degenerate into an argument.
    I think everyone's been quite civilised and rational in presenting their views and disagreeing on certain points quite respectfully. *shrug*
    Last edited by GoktimusPrime; 19th November 2008 at 06:28 PM.

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