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  #41  
Old 27th May 2018, 07:51 PM
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MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!! MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!! is offline
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Originally Posted by griffin View Post
I still just don't like the choice of actor for Han, since Harrison Ford was such an iconic actor for the role, it really ruins the feel of the movie to have someone who doesn't look or sound, or behave like the original Movies Solo. Since they were going for a no-name actor for the role, couldn't they have at least find someone who looked a little like Harrison Ford... or one of those impersonators.
A lot of people thought this guy would've been better for the role:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7xWJHXY8ws

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba_wPdLxp4
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  #42  
Old 27th May 2018, 07:56 PM
Ralph Wiggum Ralph Wiggum is online now
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Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!! View Post
A lot of people thought this guy would've been better for the role:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7xWJHXY8ws

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba_wPdLxp4
It's one thing to do a scene-by-scene impression, it's another to play the role independently.
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  #43  
Old 27th May 2018, 09:33 PM
bowspearer bowspearer is offline
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Originally Posted by Ralph Wiggum View Post
I'm sure you know that the only material which is sacrosanct, and has only every been treated as such, has been the 6x movies because they were created by Lucas. And now the cartoon series come to think of it.
I actually said that anything from the Lucasfilm group should have been made sacrosanct. However not only has that not happened, but given that Mark Hamill's character in TLJ was referred to by him as "Jake Skywalker", even the movies themselves and the core iconic characters aren't safe.

However your argument about what was created by Lucas is flawed on so many levels. Take Star Wars Dark Forces for example. Wookiepedia notes:

Quote:
George Lucas appeared on CNN's Future Watch show and demonstrated/promoted the game. Lucas and Daron Stinnett also promoted it in Disneyland when they traveled there for the opening of the Indiana Jones train.
Ergo Lucas clearly had enough of his finger in the pie on it to actively promote it - thereby officially endorsing it as a Lucasfilm Group project.

Likewise, Lucas was so involved with Shadows of the Empire, that Black Sun was there entirely because Lucas wanted the story to explore the galaxy's underworld.

To argue that these projects didn't come from Lucas and that he had no significant involvement in them, is blatant revisionism.

Then there's the fact that the Star Wars Screen Entertainment Program blatantly falls under the category of an authorised Lucasfilm fact file for 1994. It wasn't a game, but rather a screensaver/entertainment package loaded with character bios and histories, blueprints, etc. Essentially everything it mentioned was official information from Lucasfilm. Heck, the thing all but mentioned the duel between Obi-wan and Anakin at Mustafar a good 11 years before Revenge of the Sith (a duel on a lava filled planet which Anakin lost and wound up needing a portable life support suit because of it).

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Originally Posted by Ralph Wiggum View Post
Your opinion that any material from LucasArts should be treated the same as the movies is simply that: an opinion.
It may be my opinion, but it has more consistency than your opinion, given that you've claimed that certain things shouldn't be off limits because Lucas had no involvement in them, when the evidence says otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Ralph Wiggum View Post
If Lucas made a storyline decision which shat all over the canon of the games, then his opinion would have overridden it.
Yet weren't fans irate at him for doing just that with changing Owen Lars from Obi-Wan's Brother to Anakin's half-brother?

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Originally Posted by Ralph Wiggum View Post
The head honchos who run Lucasfilm have made the call. You can keep dwelling on it or enjoy the next stage of the epic space fantasy we all love.
Actually the third option is for people to say "I'm out" and it's one which seems to be increasingly picking up steam among fans. After all, if even Mark Hamill had his soul destroyed over the Disney treatment of Luke, I fail to see why I should feel compelled to care any more about the new movies any more than he does, or feel any automatic hype for any of the new films.

And that's the problem; for an increasing number of us, these are no longer the films we love. They'll never kill off love of the older stuff, but it's increasingly becoming a case of "I'm out" with the new movies. Mind you that's fine considering that Kathleen Kennedy clearly wants the older fans to go away and to kill off every single iconic older character there, because they "get in the way" of the story she and others want to tell and take away the limelight from the newer characters.
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  #44  
Old 27th May 2018, 10:14 PM
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Dude. Why so angry? You’ll give yourself an ulcer.
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  #45  
Old 27th May 2018, 10:29 PM
bowspearer bowspearer is offline
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Originally Posted by M-bot View Post
Dude. Why so angry? You’ll give yourself an ulcer.
I'm not angry, it just saddens me to see how the property has been handled under Disney. I seriously don't get how Disney can get Marvel movies so right, while getting Star Wars movies so screwed up.
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  #46  
Old 27th May 2018, 10:51 PM
Ralph Wiggum Ralph Wiggum is online now
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Well I'm sorry but Lucasfilm simply doesn't share your views:

Quote:
]Holocron database and canonicity

Historically, Lucasfilm tracked the storylines and content of these media in large black binders, known as bibles. In 2000, Leland Chee was hired as Continuity Database Administrator for Lucas Licensing, and implemented a database to replace the bibles. The database was named the Holocron,[32][33][34][35] a term used within the fictional Star Wars universe for "ancient repositories of knowledge and wisdom" used by the Jedi and Sith.[36][37] Lucasfilm's Holocron consists of over 55,000 entries for franchise characters, locations, species, and vehicles.[32] Chee said of the database in 2012, "What sets Star Wars apart from other franchises is that we develop a singular continuity across all forms of media, whether it be the films, TV series, video games, novels and comics, and the Holocron is a key component to Lucasfilm being able to do this."[38]

The Holocron was divided into five levels of canon (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

GWL-canon or "G-canon" stood for "George Lucas canon": Marked "GWL" after George Lucas (whose middle name is "Walton")[34]. It included Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time), and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films.[39] GWL-canon overrode the lower levels of canon when there was a contradiction. In the words of Leland Chee: "George's view of the universe is his view. He's not beholded to what's gone before."[34]

T-canon was Television canon: Referred to the canon level comprising the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Many stories wound up superseding those depicted in continuity canon, and the second Clone Wars animated series and its film also overwrote Genndy Tartakovsky's 2003 Clone Wars animated micro-series.[39]

C-canon was Continuity canon: Consisting of most of the materials from the Star Wars Expanded Universe including the books, comics, and videogames bearing the label of Star Wars.[39] According to a Wired article, the creation of stories that introduced radical changes in the continuity, like The Force Unleashed video-game which introduced Darth Vader's secret apprentice, required Lucas's approval, and he spent hours explaining to the developers anything he deemed necessary for them to know.[34] Games and RPG sourcebooks were a special case; the stories and general background information were themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay were, with few exceptions, N-canon.[citation needed]

S-canon was Secondary canon: Covering the same media as C-canon, it was immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradicted each other, the non-contradicting elements were still a canon part of the Star Wars universe, this included certain elements of a few N-canon stories.[39] The Star Wars Holiday Special is an example of secondary canon.[34]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_W...anded_universe

And here's one from the man himself:

Quote:

“There are two worlds here,” explained Lucas. “There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.”"

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 - as reported on the Cinescape site, from Cinescape Magazine
Source: http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html

This website makes it clear that George has always acted as a consultant role in the non-movie media - games, books and the like. That doesn't (and has now been established) make it absolute canon.

I'm done debating. You're not going to change your mind, and neither will I. You're entitled to your opinion, and I hope you accept mine. I won't judge you for not wanting to watch the new movies but don't begrudge those who actually wants to see where this new direction of Star Wars is going.
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  #47  
Old 28th May 2018, 12:00 AM
Galvatran Galvatran is offline
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Originally Posted by reillyd View Post
I am in love with Enfys Nest, her gorgeous red hair, and adorable freckles.
LMAO. Moved on from Rey & Jyn at the drop of a hat.
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  #48  
Old 28th May 2018, 07:10 AM
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valkyrie_76 valkyrie_76 is offline
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I enjoyed the movie and this so did the missus. This is her first time watching a Star Wars movie and she loved it.
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  #49  
Old 28th May 2018, 10:22 AM
bowspearer bowspearer is offline
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Originally Posted by Ralph Wiggum View Post
Well I'm sorry but Lucasfilm simply doesn't share your views:
If Lucasfilm disagree with me on these examples, then they've tripped over themselves in spite of themselves your own quotes here prove my point.

You cite the following:

Quote:
“There are two worlds here,” explained Lucas. “There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.”

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 - as reported on the Cinescape site, from Cinescape Magazine
However you've completely taken this out of context, as Lucas clearly wasn't including the early exceptions here which were not licenced from Lucasfilm. Either that or Lucas had a brain fart when he was saying this.

Star Wars Screen Entertainment, which is what pertains to Solo here, was a fact-file in the form of a screensaver, which was a Lucasfilm project, took its material straight from Lucas' own notes.

Dark Forces was developed in house and personally promoted by Lucas as a Lucasfilm project.

Shadows of the Empire was developed in house. The original vague idea came from LucasArts employee Jon Knoles (not to be confused with Johnj Knoll) who proposed they do a story between ANH and ESB. The reason it focused on Black Sun and the crime boss Prince Xizor is because it was what Lucas had directed. In fact the only thing it lacked, was an actual movie. Name one other Star Wars story that didn't have a blockbuster movie in the 1990s which got its own dedicated toyline. You can't. They don't exist. So what if Steve Perry wrote the novelisation, it was a project that Lucas actively steered and had creative control over.

If you're going to class these things as licensed, then where do you start and stop. Do you say that Alan Dean Forster's Splinters of the Mind script is merely licensed?

What's stopping someone from then turning around and saying that ESB is "Licensed" then, as Lawrence Kasdan wrote it and Irvin Kerschner directed it. Lucas merely produced it.

In fact, Lucas and Kerschner clashed over Han Solo's "I know" line.

The argument which you and the likes of SharkyMcShark are making here is flawed and fails on two grounds. Firstly, as noted, unlike actual EU stuff, none of these projects operated through Lucas Licensing as their main link to the LFL and were ultimately beholden to George's creative vision.

Secondly there's this myopic fallacy. SharkyMcShark writes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark View Post
all premised on the fact that thered be no more movies.
Except where the above are concerned, it's utterly false. SWSE and Dark Forces completely predate even the SE version of the Trilogy, while Lucasfilm used Shadows of the Empire as a marketing dry run for the SE Trilogy.

As for the Holocron, taking a myopic approach to it has been a complete cluster****.

You quote:

Quote:
GWL-canon or "G-canon" stood for "George Lucas canon": Marked "GWL" after George Lucas (whose middle name is "Walton")[34]. It included Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time), and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films.[39] GWL-canon overrode the lower levels of canon when there was a contradiction. In the words of Leland Chee: "George's view of the universe is his view. He's not beholded to what's gone before."[34]

T-canon was Television canon: Referred to the canon level comprising the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the television series Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Many stories wound up superseding those depicted in continuity canon, and the second Clone Wars animated series and its film also overwrote Genndy Tartakovsky's 2003 Clone Wars animated micro-series.[39]

C-canon was Continuity canon: Consisting of most of the materials from the Star Wars Expanded Universe including the books, comics, and videogames bearing the label of Star Wars.[39] According to a Wired article, the creation of stories that introduced radical changes in the continuity, like The Force Unleashed video-game which introduced Darth Vader's secret apprentice, required Lucas's approval, and he spent hours explaining to the developers anything he deemed necessary for them to know.[34] Games and RPG sourcebooks were a special case; the stories and general background information were themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay were, with few exceptions, N-canon.[citation needed]

S-canon was Secondary canon: Covering the same media as C-canon, it was immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradicted each other, the non-contradicting elements were still a canon part of the Star Wars universe, this included certain elements of a few N-canon stories.[39] The Star Wars Holiday Special is an example of secondary canon.[34]
It's all well and good to want to come up with levels of canon, but you cannot take a medium and automatically presume that it's going to fit neatly into a category based on the form of media it takes.

None of of the examples I listed fit into that categorisation. SWSE, for example, either slots into GWL canon as it's an in-house fact file, directly sourcing GWL Canon material (eg script notes, GL written character bios, etc). Where it is S-Canon, it is S-Canon in the same way that Splinter of the Mind is S-Canon and the only example of this I can think of prior to the buyout is Owen Lars' backstory. However it for the most part falls under the category of GWL-Canon.

Likewise, Shadows of the Empire, though lacking a blockbuster movie, absolutely falls under the category of GWL canon as it was handled the exact same way by LFL as a blockbuster movie by them would be.

Dark Forces, being in the very early days of video games and developed entirely in-house, should actually belong in T-canon rather than C-canon.

In short, your entire argument is myopically fallacious.
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  #50  
Old 28th May 2018, 10:23 AM
bowspearer bowspearer is offline
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And so the point isn't lost in the last post.

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Originally Posted by Ralph Wiggum View Post
I'm done debating. You're not going to change your mind, and neither will I. You're entitled to your opinion, and I hope you accept mine. I won't judge you for not wanting to watch the new movies but don't begrudge those who actually wants to see where this new direction of Star Wars is going.
What a steaming load of horsecrap!

I came into this thread saying I was hesitant about seeing the film because I was worried a key established point about Han and Chewie's relationship might have been thrown on the cutting room floor with Disney's track record regarding Luke's portrayal (which even Mark Hamill has described as essentially being a completely different character) and in house Lucas projects which could have been reasonably believed to be safe under the mouse. The response of several people here, including you has been not to debate – not to exchange information to reach deeper levels of understanding, but to shut me up.

You claim “ I won't judge you for not wanting to watch the new movies” but that's complete garbage. Your attitude and the attitude of others here towards me hasn't been one of “let's agree to disagree”. Rather, it's been one of “STFU, be a good boy and watch your movie you uppity fanboy”, which is actually what prompted my comment about businesses giving customers the bare minimum they'll happily fork over money for - not the other way around.

“Live and let live”? Maybe you and others making the loudest cries of that here should take your own advice.

And someone here was wondering why I might have come across as a little bit irate in this thread

Last edited by bowspearer; 28th May 2018 at 11:06 AM.
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