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Thread: Martial arts discussion thread

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime View Post
    Ummm... yes. <ducks>


    Indeed I have. And part of me remains skeptical. A salesperson from my local GKR dojo paid me a visit - and I was quite open with my skepticism -- I asked her all kinds of questions and raised various concerns/issues I have with martial arts in general. Some of what I heard was surprisingly promising (e.g. they let students skip grades if they demonstrate proficiency (double grading); and in fact, grading and uniform aren't even compulsory), but other elements still leave me doubtful (e.g. the whole non-contact thing).

    Also... it seems that you're really restricted in what you're allowed to do until you're a brown belt... and there's a like a whole rainbow and a half of belts to go before you get there! I can understand their concerns about duty of care and keeping students safe... but I think their non-contact rule might give students a sense of false security - i.e. if you forbid ANY part of the body as a target, the students will learn to never defend it properly (e.g. the groin!).

    And apparently nobody's allowed to even train with any higher belts until Brown either... I did mention to the salesperson that I believe you can only learn by training with someone who's better than yourself - but she said it was a safety thing.

    In Tai Chi we allow novices to train with masters - but we do "soft contact" sparring where you "tip" instead of punching or kicking with full force -- it's like playing tips in the schoolyard; so rather than punching your face, I'd simply tap it with my finger tips. Obviously if I can move fast enough to tap you on the face, I could easily have punched you there. And likewise with the stomach, throat, shoulder... any part of the body except the groin (because as we all know, even a gentle tap on the scrotum can REALLY hurt!) -- for that we just tap the upper inner thigh (where the groin muscle is, right next to the groin itself). Most of our punches and kicks were done against pads and shields. If we wanted to punch and kick against an opponent then you'd wear all the safety gear like with sparring - but only more advanced students were allowed to do that.

    But even novice students were allowed to "tip" or even just punch/kick and finish it just a few cm away from the target (which teaches good control - although you don't want to do that all the time or you'd learn to strike in front of targets and not through them as you should ). The salesperson said that the problem with doing this with beginners is that they often lack the coordination to do it safely and may end up causing injuries - which is a fair point. But see... this is another advantage of mixing junior and seniors together! The seniors now how to hold back their hits, because they're experienced, and when the juniors go too far, the seniors have the training to block/parry/dodge etc. and educate the junior by telling them that their strike lacked sufficient control. The juniors learn from the seniors (and quite frankly the seniors learn too through teaching).

    The trouble I find with juniors constantly training with juniors... it's like the blind leading the blind. You can have beginners practising a technique incorrectly/badly until a more senior student or instructor walks by and corrects them - but if you're training with a senior, they can correct you straight away (or at least say, "This doesn't feel right, let's stop and ask the teacher.")

    I personally can see a LOT of benefit of allowing junior and senior students to learn from each other rather than keeping the "ranks" segregated. Another cool thing is that the juniors can actually see and feel for themselves what the more advanced techniques feel like. Blocking a straight punch from a white belt feels completely different from blocking the exact same straight punch from a black belt, know what I mean? Or even having your punch blocked by an advanced student feels entirely different. And when you feel that as a novice you think, "So that's what I should be striving to achieve!"


    Okay, here are my current thoughts about GKR from what I've seen and sampled in the past:
    + The basic/fundamental techniques are quite good. That's something I've always admired about GKR -- I think especially for people who've never studied a martial art or even thrown a ball before and have really underdeveloped coordination and other physical skills, I think GKR is quite good in developing those basic core skills.
    + I personally have yet to be impressed by their more advanced techniques -- and I have actually sparred with a GKR black belt (a Sensei no less) before... and I won. And I suck at fighting (don't let my athletic physique fool you ). But hey... maybe it was just him. <shrug>
    + It has a reputation from being a McDojo (possibly the "business" side you're talking about).

    Also... I'm still wondering about the authenticity of the style. As far as I know - and the official web site verifies this - GKR was founded by an Australian, Robert Sullivan. The web site says that he studied Karate before this, but it fails to mention:
    * What style of Karate he studied.
    * What modifications were made to it when it became his GKR style.
    I did mention this to the salesperson, but she kept reassuring me that it is a traditional Japanese style of Karate and that it's popular in Japan. I told her that I've lived in Japan before, and any time I've mentioned GKR to a Japanese Karateka, they've always said, "What's GKR?" -- this took her by complete surprise. I later did Google searches in English and Japanese and I have been unable to find anything that verifies the lineage or authenticity of GKR as a style. In fact, most the results I got from the English search were criticisms against GKR. The results I got from the Japanese search was "What's GKR?" and "GKR is an Australian style of Karate, we don't have it here in Japan." When I mentioned this to the salesperson (she came back later to tell me more about GKR), she told me that she had spoken to one of her superiors about my question regarding their style authenticity, and she was told that GKR does exist in Japan, but it goes under a different name (although she didn't tell me what that name was) and that it was authorised by a Federation/organisation thingie in Japan -- not that being officially sanctioned by a federation necessarily makes it traditional. After all, Chinese Modern Wushu is officially sanctioned, yet that's an acrobatic/gymnastic performance based martial art (it's the stuff you see in Kung Fu movies - nothing like actual Kung Fu of course ). I had a lecturer at uni who did Modern Wushu and quite enjoyed it - he told me that it's a lot of fun and fitness, "but if anyone can fight with it, I'll eat my hat."

    So I will admit that I am walking into this with a fair amount of skepticism. But I've paid for a three month trial membership, so I'm locked in! I'll give it a go and give GKR a chance to change my mind. What I'm thinking about doing, if nobody has any objections, is logging my experiences/thoughts here after each lesson... that way you guys can follow me on my Karate journey.
    love to have a chat to you about my experience with gkr, i have had experience as a student, instructor and working for them. 8 years of it infact. if you have skype i'd love to chat to you pm me P.s i have a non bias view as i know the pros and cons unfortunatley lol
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  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by KalEl View Post
    what dojo do you belong to>?
    I study Kumiai-Ryu which like GKR is founded by an Australian Kevin Blundell. It definitely has McDojo qualities but overall it is the real McCoy. Kyoshi Blundell definitely has credentials. But most importantly I enjoy it and have a great bond with my Sensei.
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  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartrim View Post
    I study Kumiai-Ryu which like GKR is founded by an Australian Kevin Blundell. It definitely has McDojo qualities but overall it is the real McCoy. Kyoshi Blundell definitely has credentials. But most importantly I enjoy it and have a great bond with my Sensei.
    Thats awesome man, a good bond between student sensei is so important.
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  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by KalEl View Post
    Thats awesome man, a good bond between student sensei is so important.
    He is quite a nice bloke. Even though we are on break at the moment after I had a huge verbal stoush with my deranged sister who was verbally abusing my wife, I rang him and he let me into the academy to work the pads and let off some steam.
    HATRED FOR JAMES VAN DER BEEK RISING!

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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartrim View Post
    He is quite a nice bloke. Even though we are on break at the moment after I had a huge verbal stoush with my deranged sister who was verbally abusing my wife, I rang him and he let me into the academy to work the pads and let off some steam.
    that's cool that you are able to do that
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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by KalEl View Post
    that's cool that you are able to do that
    I know. Plus cause I am a green belt now... which means hopefully be end of year I will be going for brown/white belt he talked to me about becoming an instructor and outlined the course I have to do.
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  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartrim View Post
    I know. Plus cause I am a green belt now... which means hopefully be end of year I will be going for brown/white belt he talked to me about becoming an instructor and outlined the course I have to do.
    very cool, i learnt so much as an instructor and you grow quickly that way
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  8. #368
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    Okay, just had my first lesson tonight. Both Sensei and Sempais gave me heaps of praise about how quickly I was able to pick stuff up -- I did tell Sensei and some of the Sempais that I have a background in Tai Chi. They told me that on the first lesson they usually only teach basics: i.e. basic punching, blocking and some stances... but as I was showing good progress, Sensei taught me the entire first Kata which I repeatedly practised and Sensei nitpicked me on some technical stuff.

    The Good:

    + I'm really glad I was allowed to learn the entire first Kata on the first lesson. Learning purely the basic blocks/punches/stances alone would have bored me to tears. Oh, and I was also allowed to move into stances and punch at the same time... that's good. Doing it stationary would've also been dull.

    + The people there were very friendly.

    + Sensei let me wear my martial arts shoes in training tonight. I'm not at all fond of training barefoot... eww. Although she prefers students to be barefoot... but honestly, unless I'm sparring with someone, what's the practical reason? Even if I am sparring, these are sparring shoes! They're not street shoes - I don't _ever_ wear them anywhere outside of a martial arts class. But anyway, it's Sensei's choice... so far she's fine with me wearing the shoes, but if she insists that I take them off, I will (her Dojo, her rules).

    + Sensei believes in teaching from the feet up. That doing the stances correctly comes before doing the hands correctly. I could not agree with her more.

    + As I suspected, the training techniques are quite good for people who have either never done a martial art or any form of sport, or have underdeveloped physical coordination/skills.

    + The blocks are very "tight" (close to the body) which is more typical of Okinawan Karate than Japanese Karate. The Okinawans tend to have tighter blocks like this, whereas Japanese Karate typically has more open/outward blocks like this. I did ask Sensei if she knew what style of Karate Kanchou had learnt before creating GKR, but she didn't know (but she said that hopefully I'll get to meet Kanchou someday and I can ask him directly. ).

    The Dubious:

    + This whole "no contact" thing. Now, I'm used to going to schools where students don't spar -- that's actually a very traditional part of martial arts (sparring is more of a modern thing - although I can see the benefit of it)... but the immediate problem I can see here is that students are taught to punch in front of targets, not through them! In Tai Chi - and I'm sure this is the same in most other martial arts - we're taught to plow through our targets. Whenever we hit a pad or shield, we aim to hit past the target, not at it. All their punches are very "retracted"... obviously designed so that beginner students will only stop their punches just short of striking their opponents, but never at them! Sensei explained to the beginners that in Karate we never hit anyone, we only ever hit in front of them. So what's the point of practising punches (and later kicks) then? If you don't believe in hitting someone, fine, I can respect that. So use passive defensive techniques that don't involve striking e.g. grappling, throwing, submission, wrestling... more focus on blocking, parrying or even simply evasive manoeuvring (stepping/hopping). I'm just imagining someone trying to defend themselves with these moves by punching the air in front of an attacker's face! As a result of the no-contact rule, it permeates into _everything_ we do -- not just basic strike practice, but in the way we move into stances and practice kata too. Some of the 'mistakes' that Sensei picked me up on was because I was driving my strikes too much... i.e. because I'm imagining my hits plowing through my targets, not stopping in front of them. So she'd correct me by getting me to hold my strikes back. And you know what the irony is? The Japanese word that they use for "punch" in the Dojo is "zuki" which actually means "to thrust," yet we are taught not to thrust through!

    + Apparently even when contact is permitted at the higher levels, it's still limited -- no striking below the belt (other than sweeps). So what... no kicking to the shins, striking to the groin, stomping on the foot, taking out the knees etc.??

    + At least one of the stances has been simplified in a way that I find questionable -- this being the "Renojidachi". When Sensei first showed the stance to me, I moved my feet into a traditional Renojidachi position, like this - the reason why I did this is because the feet position happen to be the same as the 60:40 stance that we have in TaiChi/Kung Fu - only that the weight distribution is different (60:40 stance has even distribution like a Riding Horse Stance, whereas I was told the Renojidachi is a "back heavy" stance). Here are some photos of people standing in traditional Renojidachi - the same way that I was initially standing in:
    http://ginkage.net/kihon/images/renoji1.jpg
    http://www.karatenomichi.ru/articles...noji_dachi.jpg
    http://www.shitoryu.org/skills/stanc...es/renojis.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VBQ6NyWawF...JI%2BDACHI.JPG
    Btw, "Renojidachi" literally means "The 'Re' character stance," because the feet are meant to form the Katakana character "Re" which looks like this: レ
    Sensei told me that the way I stood in Renojidachi was formerly correct, but it's now been changed to widen the stance like this... which naturally opens the groin <wince>. Sensei told me that the reason for this is stability... umm... the traditional version is stable too - so long as the person knows how to stand in their stance properly. Sure, it's harder to achieve... but you know, with effort and practice you can do it. Many martial arts schools test your stances by getting you stand in them and then getting other students to see if they can push you over! If you fall, then you weren't standing in your stance properly. In Tai Chi we do Push Hands, which absolutely requires you to stand in stance properly or you'll fly backwards. The only advantage I can see with the new Renojidachi is that it's easier to teach and learn, because it's technically far more simplistic. Just make sure you're wearing a cup.

    + There's a part of the Kata where I look over my shoulder to an opponent who's behind me, but then I have to move to the opposite side of where I just looked, and therefore turn my back on my opponent!

    The Different: i.e. stuff I consider neither good or bad, but just different to what I'm used to and will take some time to adjust

    + The whole shouting "KIAI!" thing. If you ever watch people practice Tai Chi forms, we're quiet as church mice - to go from that to "Angry White Pyjamas" is going to take some getting used to!

    + Barefoot training. I really hope Sensei will keep letting me wear my MA shoes. I don't even step onto my front porch with barefeet! Eww. Oh, and when we were running around the hall, one student went "OWW!" and told Sensei that she'd just stepped on something sharp. We looked around to see what it was, but couldn't see it. Made me feel glad I had footwear on!

    + Stepping into stances with that "inward-outward step" movement. In TaiChi/Kung Fu we just step forward like you do when walking, but in GKR we have to move the moving foot inward toward the stationary foot, but not touching it, then outward. I'm finding this difficult to do at high speed.

    Other thoughts:

    + Is it required for instructors to use Japanese terminology? Because my Sensei - in her own admission - struggles with the pronunciation. I have trouble understanding what she's trying to say half the time, and quite frankly... she might as well just speak English to us. I can understand students wanting to familiarise themselves with certain terms in Japanese for the purposes of training w/ Karateka from non-English speaking countries, especially Japan. And it's also really useful if you're doing research into Karate, especially where source materials have never been translated into English. But as far as speaking in classes is concerned, I'm not sure if there's much benefit to constantly speaking poorly pronounced Japanese in the Dojo all the time - and I mean no disrespect to my Sensei by saying this. As I said, Sensei herself admits that she has trouble wrapping her tongue around the Japanese words. For example, the first punch we were taught was what Sensei initially called the "Oo-dan-zuki," which she told us means "Stomach punch." She kept saying, "Oo-dan-zuki" to us, and I kept thinking, "What is this word??" "Stomach punch" would actually be "Hara-uchi" (腹打ち) in Japanese... but then after she taught us the second punch and told us it was "Jodan-zuki," I was like, "Oohh!! She meant "Chuu-dan-zuki!"" (中段突き), which means, "middle level thrust." Right. Also, they gave us a sheet of Japanese terminology for students to learn... the term for the back punch ("yoko ura uchi") was spelt "oko ura uchi." To Sensei's credit she did pronounce it correctly as yoko and told the class that it means "side", which is correct. Cos honestly, what usually happens in class with us beginners is that Sensei tells us the name of a move she wants us to do... and we all look at her confused, then she tells us in English, then we do it. So anyway, looks like on top of learning a new martial art, I have to learn a new dialect of Japanese too... I'ma gonna call it "Sensei-nese."

    + Sensei didn't know the name of first form. Oh sorry, I meant "Kata." I asked because I was hoping to find a video on it online to help me practise at home. She said that she doesn't remember the names of the first two katas, but remembers the names of all the Katas after that. She's currently learning the Hangetsu Kata and was telling me that she's finding it weird learning the Hangetsu-dachi. I told her that "Hangetsu-dachi" means "Half moon stance," so maybe that might help her visualise how to stand in that position. I just Googled it now and apparently it's a variation of the Sanchin stance -- a core fundamental stance in both Fujian Kung Fu (where it originated from - the word "Sanchin" comes from Fujian Chinese phonology, because in Japanese it should be pronounced as "Sansen";三戦立ち) and Karate. I might discuss this with her next week -- hopefully once she can relate it with the Sanchin stance, then it might make it easier for her to do the Half-Moon stance. Oh sorry, the Hangetsudachi.

    + At least two people at the Dojo asked me if I had a family, then asked me why I didn't bring my wife and child to the class. When I told them that my wife just isn't interested in martial arts, they were like, "Why not? Bring her along," etc. And when I told them that my daughter is only 2, they were like, "You can bring her along when she's a bit older." This felt kinda McDojo and borderline cultish to me. Their payment structure is done so that families who enroll end up paying less, so it encourages people to drag relatives along... but seriously... could you imagine if people were like this at TF meets?? "Hey, where are your wife and kids? What do you mean they didn't want to come this collectible toy fair? Well, make sure you bring them along next time, okay?"

  9. #369
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    So overall how would you rate your first lesson? I feel that Kalel will be the best person to talk to regarding your concerns. The only thing I can comment on is the C-Step. We do the "C step" or as you put it "in GKR we have to move the moving foot inward toward the stationary foot, but not touching it, then outward." It does take practice but it is a very practical step for taking down an opponent . the way the foot moves in the c-step if done correctly can get behind your opponents foot and used to trip/sweep their leg out.
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  10. #370
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    Ah right, "C-Step," heh... still getting used to some new terminology and moves.

    Overall it was pretty basic - as I expected. Although I was pleasantly surprised that Sensei let me learn the first Kata in its entirety... although it is a very basic form; only has one kind of punch, one kind of block and they say it only uses one stance, but in actuality it uses two, because they use a cross-legged stance as a transition when turning around. But I can see how it would be beneficial for people with little sports background or underdeveloped coordination. I've dropped KalEl a PM, so hopefully we'll be able to discuss this in more detail.

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